No Strength and No Fine Manipulators

[Poonbahbah]

In what ways does having no fine manipulators disadvantage an entity with no Strength? Like the Body of Air template from the Basic Set...

It just seems like double dipping and getting a cost break for dex to me. Having no strength already means you can't manipulate anything! At least not physically without some sort of advantage in play like TK or mind control. Even then it's indirect manipulation...

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Anders]

Surely you can still push a button?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anders

Surely you can still push a button?

What is the BL required to push it? Can an ant do it?

[LemmingLord]

I can think of just a few very minor limitations no fine manupulators might give you that st 0 alone wouldnt:

No sign language.
No use of hand/finger print scanners.
Penalized use of ironmanesque holographic user interfaces.

Sounds like a zero point feature to me.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Anders

Surely you can still push a button?

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

What is the BL required to push it? Can an ant do it?

Good point. The rules give wonky results in extreme situations. Can we fix it in a way that isn't fiddly?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Anders

Good point. The rules give wonky results in extreme situations. Can we fix it in a way that isn't fiddly?

"You have no ST with which to manipulate objects, so No Fine Manipulators is a disadvantage that doesn't limit you further. It's not allowed."

No wonkiness if you Just Say No.

[GodBeastX]

There was a pyramid on stuff like this if I recall, where you get more granular at small levels.

Personally, I'd say no strength and no fine manipulators do not overlap and should be allowed.

Can an ant push a button? No, but they can still carry grains of food and **** back to their hive even though their HP and Strength don't register on the GURPS chart.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

There was a pyramid on stuff like this if I recall, where you get more granular at small levels.

Personally, I'd say no strength and no fine manipulators do not overlap and should be allowed.

Can an ant push a button? No, but they can still carry grains of food and **** back to their hive even though their HP and Strength don't register on the GURPS chart.

That's an issue with scale, not with ST 0 proper. An ant can carry things because it has a ST rating relative to its size. A Size Modifier 0 character with ST 0 cannot carry anything beyond its own body weight.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

That's an issue with scale, not with ST 0 proper. An ant can carry things because it has a ST rating relative to its size. A Size Modifier 0 character with ST 0 cannot carry anything beyond its own body weight.

This is a crucial point - ST 0 characters are explicitly not immobilized by their weakness. They can still walk around, and (I would allow) wield pencils, push buttons, even feed themselves (maybe no nut-cracking).

[Poonbahbah]

Heh I forgot that they aren't immobilized. Which makes sense in game context as you get what you pay for and lose what you get points for. To drop move would be a separate disadvantage. That said I would require any creature to buy down their basic move if they have a corporal body and ST 0. Which isn't a problem for a body of air.

And looking over the body of air meta-trait from basic I goofed. They have no manipulators not no fine manipulators. Which limits them to pushing things with their heads and bodies with their 0 ST. As compared to picking things up, hitting things, twisting things, pulling things, and whatnot with ST 0 if they have manipulators. But with ST 0 they can't really lift push hit or whatnot with any appreciable well ST. So it doesn't really seem to disadvantage them further to me.

In regards to body of air.
They shouldn't be able to push a button. At least I don't think they can exert pressure beyond what their body weighs, and they fly by being lighter than air. Technically a pencil is infinite times heavier then they're basic lift of zero, never mind the no manipulators thing. I could see them having sign language though as they contort their body in various shapes a non-defuse creature would have trouble emulating.

"You have no ST with which to manipulate objects, so No Fine Manipulators is a disadvantage that doesn't limit you further. It's not allowed."No wonkiness if you Just Say No.

Rule zero is a good and valid fix but I'm not the gm of the game. And as the other player pointed out to me it's a canon combination in the basic set. I'm just seeing if anyone here can help me make sense of it.

And thank you for the replies so far.