No Fine Manipulators

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

There is some evidence that only humans (not even other high primates) have the ability to throw and reliably hit a target (something about neural pathways and processing trajectories mentally).

Jersey Zoo (in the Chanel Islands) used to have a mentally disturbed gorilla who was a good shot with lumps of turf. When the mood took her, she'd throw them at zoo visitors, and hit regularly. Having seen the enclosure where she used to live, the ranges would be 10 yards at minimum.

So I think there's some case for higher primates being able to do this, but practice is definitely an issue. My own throwing ability improved from "rubbish" to "average" in a day at age 14, when I found a way to have throwing bricks count as productive work and spent hours doing it.

[Yako]

I had exactly been thinking about simians in general, who by the official rules are one case of non human animals with fine manipulators.^^

I would say it is a good question for deciding who gets fine manipulators and who does not.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Parrots have been characterized as being built with one hand rather than none.

I don't know why their mouths should be treated radically differently from anybody elses, though it seems that they are.

I thought the idea is that a parrot can stand on one foot and use the other foot as a manipulator. But they should also have a temporary disad of One Leg when they do that.

[Not]

Is there some level of Bad Grip that's equivalent to NFM?

[Yako]

The maximum level of Bad Grip (3 levels, -15 in total) and two levels of hamfisted (-10) give you -6 on pretty much anything that requires fine manipulators.
So -25 VS the-30 of no fine manipulators.

Basically, going beyond that level IS no fine manipulators.

[Not]

The parrot was specifically exempted because (according to lore) it can pick the lock of its own cage. Also, we've seen them hanging from the top of their cages by the bill. Search me how you stat the bill. It functions mainly as a nutcracker, feather-groomer and finger-pecker. The difference between the parrot and the finch might be less in the bill than in the brain.

[chandley]

I give birds the following:

Dextrous Legs without other arms (like on a bird): Arms (Change built in arms to Foot Manipulators -30%; Short -50%) [-16], and add a Feature: No Arm or Hand hit locations.

Each leg can be used as a short arm at the cost of a leg, meaning they have to be sitting down to use both. I usually throw Bad Grip 2 on there as well, for a total of -26 points.

Martial Arts already allows bites to be used in a grapple, which is how a dog, cat, or bird picks up prey with its mouth. Its not fine enough to use to pick locks though. I'd probably allow a bird to combine a Dextrous Leg with their Beak to do two handed things like lock picking.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I thought the idea is that a parrot can stand on one foot and use the other foot as a manipulator. But they should also have a temporary disad of One Leg when they do that.

Wouldn't that be more a case of 'foot manipulators' or some such? There's an established way to stat legs that can be alternately used as arms.

[Not]

Originally Posted by chandley

I give birds the following:

Dextrous Legs without other arms (like on a bird): Arms (Change built in arms to Foot Manipulators -30%; Short -50%) [-16], and add a Feature: No Arm or Hand hit locations.

Each leg can be used as a short arm at the cost of a leg, meaning they have to be sitting down to use both. I usually throw Bad Grip 2 on there as well, for a total of -26 points.

Martial Arts already allows bites to be used in a grapple, which is how a dog, cat, or bird picks up prey with its mouth. Its not fine enough to use to pick locks though. I'd probably allow a bird to combine a Dextrous Leg with their Beak to do two handed things like lock picking.

What kind of ST did you give the Ostrich or Cassowary?

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Not

What kind of ST did you give the Ostrich or Cassowary?

ST 13 for the Ostrich. Didnt stat out a Cassowary directly, but would probably clock in at ST 11.

I put it all here if you are interested. Lwcamp has a nice site (with rather different assumptions) too.