Pricing ST without HP (Super-Effort)

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I suppose you could do that if you want - but I wouldn't. The lack of HP has already been rounded off, rounding it off again seems like a crock. That said, I might get behind "No Knockback Resistance" (-20%) - but that doesn't fit thematically with most of the instances of touch-range TK I've seen.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I'd also like to point out that you don't get a similar discount on either Lifting or Striking ST - Super Effort on either of those is +400% and Extra ST without HP is basically shorthand for: Lift ST + Striking ST or "Buy your ST up for 10/level, then lower your HP for -2/level."

Now I'm slightly confused. The Pyramid article prices the trait as: "Extra ST without HP (Psychokinesis, -10%; Super- Effort, +300%) [31.2/level]." If you were just taking Bill's version and then buying down HP, it would be 38/level, less power modifier.

Your version implies implies treating "Extra ST without HP" as a combination of Lifting ST and Striking ST, then applying the +300% modifier for ST from Supers rather than the +400% modifier for Lifting ST from Powers.

The justification for using the lower modifier for ST is that there's no benefit to HP, but when enhancing Lifting ST + Striking ST, the "doesn't benefit HP" argument doesn't apply.

Now, you could go with +300% anyway, if you feel it would be more appropriate for your campaign and don't intend to use Bill's verison of Super ST. But trying to mix the two versions will put players who use Bill's verion at a significant disadvantage.

But maybe you meant to say that in a campaign that uses both ST without HP (Super-Effort) and ST (Super-Effort, Bill's version), they should cost exactly the same?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The justification for using the lower modifier for ST is that there's no benefit to HP, but when enhancing Lifting ST + Striking ST, the "doesn't benefit HP" argument doesn't apply.

Now, you could go with +300% anyway, if you feel it would be more appropriate for your campaign and don't intend to use Bill's verison of Super ST. But trying to mix the two versions will put players who use Bill's verion at a significant disadvantage.

I honestly didn't think about mixing them both, since normally you can't buy direct attributes using the Psionic Powers framework. I think I see what you are saying. You're saying that Super-ST (which includes HP) is [40/level], while Extra ST without HP is [32/level], which means that 1 HP is about 8 character points (which cannot be right). I suppose you should simply charge +400% on Extra ST without HP then, to make the costs as even as they are supposed to be.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I honestly didn't think about mixing them both, since normally you can't buy direct attributes using the Psionic Powers framework. I think I see what you are saying. You're saying that Super-ST (which includes HP) is [40/level], while Extra ST without HP is [32/level], which means that 1 HP is about 8 character points (which cannot be right). I suppose you should simply charge +400% on Extra ST without HP then, to make the costs as even as they are supposed to be.

1 HP is normally 2 CP. With a +300% modifier, it becomes 8 CP.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

1 HP is normally 2 CP. With a +300% modifier, it becomes 8 CP.

Right, but HP doesn't increase when using Super-ST - it's just HP. More I think about this, the more it's occurring to me is that this is probably errata. Good luck on getting it applied to such a old issue though. I've put in a couple of other pieces for this issue and that was years ago...still no change.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Right, but HP doesn't increase when using Super-ST - it's just HP. More I think about this, the more it's occurring to me is that this is probably errata. Good luck on getting it applied to such a old issue though. I've put in a couple of other pieces for this issue and that was years ago...still no change.

I always saw "ST without HP" as just another way of saying "Buy up your ST, then buy down your HP to match" anyway.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

I always saw "ST without HP" as just another way of saying "Buy up your ST, then buy down your HP to match" anyway.

Right, which is the problem I think. I'll shoot a email off and see what the Secret Masters think.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Right, which is the problem I think. I'll shoot a email off and see what the Secret Masters think.

Yay consulting Secret Masters!

[PK]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Right, which is the problem I think. I'll shoot a email off and see what the Secret Masters think.

Sigh. The root issue here was letting Supers "round" +320% to +300%. But that's done and it's entrenched in a few too many places to look at altering it. So the best way to deal with Michael's issue with minimal damage is to specifically treat "Super-ST, No Hit Points" (as in, even the base ST doesn't add hit points) as a +280% enhancement on ST itself. This produces fair results.

It's only needed to fix this one issue, however; as a general rule, most calculations work best treating "ST without HP" as 8 points/level and applying modifiers to that, rather than applying modifiers to ST @ 10 points/level and selling back HP for a flat -2 points/level.

[The Benj]

Yes, it's simpler to treat "ST-HP" as an 8-point thing (I tend to call it "Might"), which you can then apply mods to.
I regard the free HP included in "Super-Strength" as simple silliness.

[Arcanist Xerxes]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Yes, it's simpler to treat "ST-HP" as an 8-point thing (I tend to call it "Might"), which you can then apply mods to.
I regard the free HP included in "Super-Strength" as simple silliness.

Might, thank you I needed a good name for this