[Social Engineering] Can you use "Cutting Out" with Empathy?

[PK]

<MOD>

Guys, if you want to start a fight, take it to PM. And, "You're trying to start a fight with me!" "No, you are!' counts as starting something.

Bill and NDD: You're starting to get overheated, and at this point you're just repeating yourselves. Please let this sub-discussion drop.

Bill and Figleaf23: I've deleted the posts of this argument, because it had no relevance to the thread.

Everyone: If your post isn't about using Cutting Out with Empathy, make it elsewhere. Thanks.

</MOD>

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by whswhs

... In the meantime, I'll stand by saying that it's not part of the RAW in Social Engineering, ...

It is not clear to me why or how a distinction can be made between parts of RAW in that fashion. It would seem to have the effect of putting up a surprising divider between where Powers and SE can be used in combination.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

It is not clear to me why or how a distinction can be made between parts of RAW in that fashion. It would seem to have the effect of putting up a surprising divider between where Powers and SE can be used in combination.

If I may step in as an editor for a moment . . .

First: There is no such divider. Social Engineering is in no way incompatible with Powers. It just happens to more-or-less ignore Powers, because the focus of the book is very explicitly on realistic social interaction. (And there's nothing realistic about super-powers.)

Second: As for Cutting Out and Empathy, I've just now had time to sit down and read the rules carefully. And I would have to say that yes, the rules strongly imply that you can buy the Cutting Out technique for use with Empathy. Cutting Out is simply a penalized approachability roll, and the rules for approachability state that "Empathy allows an IQ roll for this purpose in place of any skill." Thus, if you have Empathy, it's reasonable to allow Cutting Out to default to IQ-4, with a maximum cap of IQ.

Whether Empathy requires a skill, and whether it uses IQ or Per, are both red herrings. The former doesn't affect techniques, as a technique can always be based on an attribute -- and the latter is a non-issue because the GM can always choose to float rolls to other attributes.

Third: We're here to have discussions about GURPS, not arguments over who's right and wrong. There is no "right" and "wrong" in an RPG; there's only what works best for your group. If you find yourself on this forum debating your stance and trying to prove your point, please step away from the forums for a while and calm down. (This is a general comment, not directed at one specific person.)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I haven't suggested anything about turning empathy into a power.

I didn't define it as either psionic or a power.

Yep, the instant you put in a skill to base it off you made it a power as defined in the book. Could be magic or psi (which I think you used as an example) but while it may be possible to give it a skill roll and not call it a power...
A) Almost anyone would assume your intending it to be a power since that's the way the skill substitution goes.
B) I cant think of a situation where you would have empathy with a skill substitution and it NOT be a power. Probably one out there but science, magical and psi all seem to be power special effects that would fit certain situations.
EDIT( Saw the mod note) My tone might have come across adversarial and even if normally it wouldn't be perceived that way I think today there is enough going on that people are more sensitive. So I was supporting the point of view that what you described was changing it to a power rather then making an attack.
Mind I already think of Empathy as kind of a power but can see a marginal set of situations where its not really subconscious psi or hyper analysis or something else.
But it wont take much to push it into the realm of a full blown power becasue it already (in my mind) is so darn close.