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Old 02-18-2011, 11:58 AM   #171
sclose1970
 
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

Under the "Using the sights" section, in the Aimed Shooting sub-section, on page 14, it says that aimed shooting should be considered an Aim followed by All-Out Attack (Determined). I can see why aimed fire would be modeled this way, and also why quickly lining up the sights and firing would be an All-Out Attack. However, a ranged weapon user is also allowed, under Basic Set RAW, to use Aim followed by an ordinary Attack maneuver. What would this model? Is it possible, in the author's opinion, to Aim then Attack, giving the shooter both more accurate fire AND the ability to defend himself?
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:01 PM   #172
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
Under the "Using the sights" section, in the Aimed Shooting sub-section, on page 14, it says that aimed shooting should be considered an Aim followed by All-Out Attack (Determined). I can see why aimed fire would be modeled this way, and also why quickly lining up the sights and firing would be an All-Out Attack. However, a ranged weapon user is also allowed, under Basic Set RAW, to use Aim followed by an ordinary Attack maneuver. What would this model? Is it possible, in the author's opinion, to Aim then Attack, giving the shooter both more accurate fire AND the ability to defend himself?
I'll leave it for Hans to comment further, but I think what he tried to do is convey how the actual techniques and methods are taught and used, and map those to the game. The focus and concentration used in aimed fire is best represented by Aim + AoA (Determined), not by Aim + Attack.

You may, of course, choose any maneuvers you want, and it's perfectly legal to do so. But the best verisimilitude is achieved with the AoA variant presented.

The philosophy in this book was definitely "What is done in reality, and what rules map to reality," rather than "what game rule possibilities exist, and let's find things that match those permutations."
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 02-18-2011 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:18 PM   #173
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'll leave it for Hans to comment further, but I think what he tried to do is convey how the actual techniques and methods are taught and used, and map those to the game. The focus and concentration used in aimed fire is best represented by Aim + AoA (Determined), not by Aim + Attack.

You may, of course, choose any maneuvers you want, and it's perfectly legal to do so. But the best verisimilitude is achieved with the AoA variant presented.
I'm curious, did you guys discuss an All-out-Aim maneuver?
Giving you Acc and +1 in the first second followed by the AoA +1 the next second, with no defenses?

What about an AoA (Double) comprising of Aim & Shoot?
Giving you Acc followed by shooting without the +1 that very second, with no defenses?
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:32 PM   #174
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
I'm curious, did you guys discuss an All-out-Aim maneuver?
Giving you Acc and +1 in the first second followed by the AoA +1 the next second, with no defenses?
Not sure about realism, but from a game perspective, since Aim is already ruined by active defense, I'm somewhat leery about granting a significant advantage to go from "ruined by defending" to "can't defend"; it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Aim in a condition where you aren't fairly sure you won't need an active defense as it is, so All-Out Aim, if it existed, would pretty much completely replace Aim.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:49 PM   #175
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Not sure about realism, but from a game perspective, since Aim is already ruined by active defense, I'm somewhat leery about granting a significant advantage to go from "ruined by defending" to "can't defend"; it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Aim in a condition where you aren't fairly sure you won't need an active defense as it is, so All-Out Aim, if it existed, would pretty much completely replace Aim.
It's the same difference of +1 you gain from AoA Ranged by giving up your defenses, does AoA completely replace Attack in your experience?

Realistically though, that AoA is a common option people choose.

Also from a realistic point of view the AoA (Double) Aim/Attack is something which shooters do all the time. (Either that or people commonly have Extra Attack in order to Aim and Attack the same second, which I don't buy.)

I'm still waffling on buying this book since I'm no gun bunny...
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:52 PM   #176
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Also from a realistic point of view the AoA (Double) Aim/Attack is something which shooters do all the time. (Either that or people commonly have Extra Attack in order to Aim and Attack the same second, which I don't buy.)
Tactical Shooting considers most real life "aimed" fire to be "sighted shots" using AoA:Determined.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:05 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Tactical Shooting considers most real life "aimed" fire to be "sighted shots" using AoA:Determined.
So basically a +4 instead of just the Acc I was suggesting from an AoA (Double) Aim/Attack?

That seems a bit generous to me, it also ends up being the same chances of hitting with a pistol after aiming for 2 seconds, -> Acc +2 & Aim +1 & AoA +1 = +4.

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:06 PM   #178
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
So basically a +4 instead of just the Acc I was suggesting from an AoA (Double) Aim/Attack?

That seems a bit generous to me, it also ends up being the same chances of hitting with a pistol after aiming for 2 seconds, -> Acc +2 & Aim +1 & AoA +1 = +4.

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
AoA: Determined with Ranged weapons only gives a +1.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:06 PM   #179
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
Under the "Using the sights" section, in the Aimed Shooting sub-section, on page 14, it says that aimed shooting should be considered an Aim followed by All-Out Attack (Determined). I can see why aimed fire would be modeled this way, and also why quickly lining up the sights and firing would be an All-Out Attack. However, a ranged weapon user is also allowed, under Basic Set RAW, to use Aim followed by an ordinary Attack maneuver. What would this model? Is it possible, in the author's opinion, to Aim then Attack, giving the shooter both more accurate fire AND the ability to defend himself?
GURPS allows you to Aim, then Attack, with a gun.

Tactical Shooting considers that unrealistic. In real life, shooters always Aim, then All-Out Attack, when using a gun. Hans has done a lot of research into this topic, and he is quite certain that this is the best way to model realistic shooting; as he's quite the expert, I believe him.

This isn't errata, nor is it a new rule. It's really just a realism/roleplaying thing . . . but presumably, you bought Tactical Shooting because you wanted a thoroughly realistic treatment of firearm use in GURPS. Thus, it would be perfectly reasonable for the GM to announce, "In this campaign, gun use is gritty and real, so to get the benefits of Aim, you have to follow it up with an All-Out Attack."

This has nothing to do with the RAW -- it has to do with a desire to simulate reality as closely as possible. If you have no such desire, than don't worry about it. :)
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:12 PM   #180
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Default Re: GURPS Tactical Shooting

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I'm still waffling on buying this book since I'm no gun bunny...
I wouldnt identify myself as a gun bunny either but the tactics rules, perks (especially Battle Drills), and diagrams make it worth the price alone.

Jus' wanted to say that ;)

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