Outlander cycle?

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by HeatDeath

Bikes turn /much/ faster without a turning key.

Um -- I'm not seeing how this is in any way possible. 45 degree corner at 1" is 45 degree corner at 1", whether or not the TK is used.

Originally Posted by swordtart

Oh I thought you meant just the Pocket Box version of the basic game. If you are talking about any 1983 pocket box supplement then there is no reason not to include any other supplement that was contemporaneous (ADQ for example).

Not at all. Some of the events I ran in Omaha were *very* specific about what was allowed, and what wasn't, for that very reason -- if the event rule was "only items from the basic _CW_ Pocket Box", that specifically *excluded* item from _Truck Stop_, _Sunday Drivers_, etc.

So, for the purposes of the challenge: The basic _CW_ PB would be allowed, as it contains cars and bikes; and _Truck Stop_ would be allowed as it contains semis; but _Sunday Drivers_ *wouldn't*, as it doesn't contain any rules or items necessary for the exercise (one can use the rules in _TS_ PB for dealing with buildings and such).

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Not at all. Some of the events I ran in Omaha were *very* specific about what was allowed, and what wasn't, for that very reason -- if the event rule was "only items from the basic _CW_ Pocket Box", that specifically *excluded* item from _Truck Stop_, _Sunday Drivers_, etc.

So, for the purposes of the challenge: The basic _CW_ PB would be allowed, as it contains cars and bikes; and _Truck Stop_ would be allowed as it contains semis; but _Sunday Drivers_ *wouldn't*, as it doesn't contain any rules or items necessary for the exercise (one can use the rules in _TS_ PB for dealing with buildings and such).

So unless I have missed something there are still no burst effect weapons as Burst Effect and Area Effect were introduced in Sunday Drivers.

Grenades are lethal to everything and especially tires so need to be used very carefully and, as there is no grenade launcher yet, that means they are hand thrown (using Handgunner skill) and therefore are especially erratic when thrown from a vehicle. The only people likely to have grenades are the pillions as they are maxing out their Handgunner skill.

There are AP grenades which would be effective if the cyclists try to board the rig, but since they can now blow the wheels off without closing to 2" range they may as well just immobilise a vehicle by blowing off the tires and when it is immobilised withdraw to cover and chew off an armour side until they can get at the contents.

I think the Convoy is dead under those conditions :)

EDIT:
It is amazing, no matter how often I look at these rules, I am always spotting something I don't recall seeing previously. Looking at Sunday Drivers P17 Section 9 (3), in the second to last sentence it says that vehicles with no top armour can be considered convertibles and do not apply the -1 for firing hand weapons from vehicles (that -1 apparently only applies when you are under armour and firing through a port). Since bikes have no top armour then the -1 shouldn't apply to them either. That makes a SMG armed pillion even more likely to hit. That might make tire shots credible and SMGs do full damage to tires.

Given the far shoulder of the carriage way is less than 18" away from the building it would make more sense to just use the bikes as transport and park them out of sight round the back of the building and spend the majority of the money on SMGs. A stationary(+1) and braced(+1) Handgunner(+2), firing at the side of a vehicle <18" away (-3) travelling at 55 (-3) only needs an 8 to hit (15/36 chance). As a target they are stationary(+1), Pedestrian(-3), cover(-2), <18" (-3) and assuming dedicated Gunners (+2) for a to hit 7 weapon you need 12. Assuming you haven't wobbled at all.

If I put infantry in the woods near the carriage way the convoy are driving along rather than in the safety of a building 18" away, they are <4" and so they can target tires with the same chance to hit. These might as well be truck tires since the SMGs won't dent the trucks HS. Losing a front tire on a truck at highway speeds is BAD and as the HC will drop below 1 you will only regain it very slowly. At that distance I can even put the really useless gangers who don't even have Handgunner skill and get them to throw grenades, they only need to get close. You only need 9 to hit them, but each firing action can only kill one at a time.

Dug in infantry are very dangerous under those early rules sets and bikers are simply motorised infantry.

[Dr Rick]

If we're only using PB and TS is handgunner a thing yet? I know it wasn't in the pocket box, I never bought TS as my first edition was Deluxe. (Not having Handgunner doesn't penalise grenade-throwing, incidentally, though it does improve it if you have plusses.)

While on the topic of grenades, the "new grenade rules" in ADQ 3-1 say 2"/1d to people and tyres, 1/2" to vehicles. Compendium 2.5 nerfs this extremely so that tyres require "vehicular damage" for grenades (including flechette grenades). I find this disappointing - grenade launchers are now almost useless for vehicular combat, aren't they? (Especially since, to target a square near to or in the immediate path of a vehicle, you take speed mods.)

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by Dr Rick

If we're only using PB and TS is handgunner a thing yet? I know it wasn't in the pocket box, I never bought TS as my first edition was Deluxe. (Not having Handgunner doesn't penalise grenade-throwing, incidentally, though it does improve it if you have plusses.)

Yes, you are correct, oops. This is the problem in going back in time having played later versions, so much has been added that needed to be there that playing purely the PB version is a bit pants. PB only had 3 skills as you say Drive, Gunner and Cyclist and you have 0 in all of them (so no -3 in anything). We presume that Gunner is also the skill for firing hand weapons. It was however common for scenarios to allow characters to have more skill points to start with.

Truck Stop introduced 2 more skills - GASP! allowing you to choose 30 points of skills (and first claimed it was a "roleplaying adventure").

I thought Handgunner was brought in with Sunday Drivers, but it appears not.

I started playing with the CW Deluxe B&W edition (which incorporates a whole raft of skills) and I only acquired the earlier editions for historical interest (and to work out what the intent of some of these rules were when they were first introduced).

[43Supporter]

This is a problem with _CW_ I have railed about for a while -- for ex.: In _OGRE_, if I need to use a specific rule, I can specify which rule from which supplement I need; in _CW_, I can't (at least, not easily).

[Dr Rick]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Um -- I'm not seeing how this is in any way possible. 45 degree corner at 1" is 45 degree corner at 1", whether or not the TK is used.

Since nobody else picked this up: yes, 45 degrees is just that, but as I understand it, in the original edition you didn’t define turns by angle, but by grid lines laterally the front corner moves. This makes a d1 for a car about 14.5 degrees, 30 for a bike, about 9.6 for a tractor, and I reckon maybe 5 degrees for a forty-foot bus. D2 would be 30 for a car but 90 for a cycle! But I may have misunderstood, since I don’t have the original ruleset. The variance makes sense to me, though the cycle escalates far too quickly if that’s correct.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Dr Rick

Since nobody else picked this up: yes, 45 degrees is just that, but as I understand it, in the original edition you didn’t define turns by angle, but by grid lines laterally the front corner moves.

Not really, no. Turning is handled by the Turning Key; one aligns the TK with the forward-most edge of the vehicle counter, whatever vehicle it may be; then moves the counter to align with the forward-most edge of the other end of the maneuver. (This is where we run into problems with vehicle counter longer than 1"; the rear of the counter swings outward.)

Unfortunately, I can't post pictures; it would be easier to show than to tell.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Not really, no. Turning is handled by the Turning Key; one aligns the TK with the forward-most edge of the vehicle counter, whatever vehicle it may be; then moves the counter to align with the forward-most edge of the other end of the manoeuvre. (This is where we run into problems with vehicle counter longer than 1"; the rear of the counter swings outward.)

Unfortunately, I can't post pictures; it would be easier to show than to tell.

I think the question is best shown by the D6 Tight bend. With the turning key the bike counter begins and ends in the same position as the front half of a car counter. Under PB rules it starts in the front half and end in the rear half, losing 1/2" of movement (and making a tighter bend).

You can view this as either a faster turn as you turn more in less movement or slower as you get less movement. It is however different.

I was toying with expressing the manoeuvrability/instability of bike by making manoeuvres 1D lower for bikes but making Hazards 1D higher. It might bring back that difference, but would be a divergence from the rules.

[sparcipx]

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[Dr Rick]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Not really, no. Turning is handled by the Turning Key; one aligns the TK with the forward-most edge of the vehicle counter, whatever vehicle it may be; then moves the counter to align with the forward-most edge of the other end of the maneuver. (This is where we run into problems with vehicle counter longer than 1"; the rear of the counter swings outward.)

Unfortunately, I can't post pictures; it would be easier to show than to tell.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. I know to use a turning key! But I didn’t think the original, or the pocket box, had them, relying instead on the grid as I wrote. I’ve just looked at an unboxing post for the pocket box reprints and I don’t see a turning key anywhere. Am I wrong?