Outlander cycle?

[swordtart]

I took on a $100K big rig and two support vehicles with 3 fast accelerating bikes (like the outlander) that had actually had no vehicular weapons (as the gangers were dregs and the bikes were salvage). There were a total of 6 bikers.

They had set up at an abandoned gas station. They had put a tent on the central reservation about 20 yards forward of their position. The bikes were parked round the side of the gas station on the other side of the carriageway and out of sight with the 3 riders armed with sawn-off shotguns and 3 remaining gangers riding pillion with ARs.

The players had not long defeated a poorly coordinated attempt to intercept them, however the lead vehicle had lost a front wheel guard and taken some minor front damage, the tail end Charlie had lost all his front armour in an ill advised ram but his trike still had full armour on the sides rear and all his dropped weapons fully loaded. He was riding in the rocking chair. The truck bringing up the rear was undamaged but as it was hauling a dual level flatbed it could only use its twin linked IR pulse lasers to front and side arcs. It had 3 linked flaming oil droppers to the rear.

The players presume the tent hides a threat and so the truck opens up on it with the laser (it can't see the bikes at this point). The vanguard decides to turn in at the intersection to attack the bikes with its front mounted BC. The bikes have done nothing so far but now put their foot to the floor and drive straight at the turning vanguard, pillions firing all the time. The trike discovers that Gunner 0 plus and MML against the front of a cycle at over 8" isn't going to work so decides to drop to the rear to cover the truck.

Within seconds the Vanguard has hit a bike with the BC and killed the rider, but it continues straight at him. He has taken a few hits to his front and the other bikers pass him at <1" pillion with pillions and riders firing at his front tire at point blank range. Their to hit at that range is still adequate and their combined fire is enough to destroy it. Split seconds later the vanguard collides with the dead bike who's pillion gives one last defiant burst into his front armour before he smashes the bike losing half his armour in the process.

As the bikes zoom off in pursuit of the truck the vanguard is unable to move at any speed as its HS is tanked and it would need to turn and go off road to turn more quickly. From this point it is effectively out of the fight as despite being fully capable of fire and manoeuvre it can't get LOS quickly enough.

The truck has started dropping flaming oil and the trike is laying spikes in the outside lane to discourage pursuit, but unexpectedly the bikes take the inside and ride on the shoulder and eventually off-road putting the truck between them and the trike who cannot influence the battle.

Unable to get his laser into arc the trucker is forced to keep on closing with the bikes but the nibbling by ARs means he cant afford to go offroad or manoeuvre too harshly. He is slows so that he can make a sharper bend so the bikes run into him. He feels he can withstand a side swipe better than they can. This however plays directly into their hands as the pillions leap from the bikes onto the flatbed and take cover amid the cargo containers.

One of the bikes cannot avoid and wipes out damaging the truck and the other hared off for the cover of the tree-line. It almost made it, but the trucker finally gets a shot on target and vaporises the rider.

The players were left with the difficult decision of whether to leave the safety of their vehicular armour to extract the two dismounts who had entered the cargo containers or just carry on and hope they wouldn't do too much damage.

The players did not realise the aim of the bikers was always to board the trailer and throw the goods off to be picked up later by their starving families.

Never underestimate the power of weak but desperate opponents (on small fast targets) that act unexpectedly or fearlessly. The effects of underestimating them or presuming they will try to slug it out on equal terms can be a significant force multiplier for them.

Whilst this might not appear to be a victory for the dregs, two are still alive and they manage to throw off plenty of goods before they get stopped. The bikes were salvage and there are 4 less mouths to feed. For the players however this spells the beginning of the end for them. The truck expends all its flaming oil to absolutely no effect. The vanguards compromised HC means it becomes a much easier target and only need to loose one more wheel to become a mobility kill (and in a road campaign might mean it gets left behind). The repair costs are significant. The trike also expended all its dropped weapon ammunition. There is no opportunity for the players to salvage anything as they would need to get out and become targets for the dregs on the trailer. Even the minor damage to the truck from the bumps with the bikes represents a significant cost.

This was the second attack in a run of three in a short space of time, with the total value of the opponents being about 1/5th of the players vehicles. It ended with the truck and trike immobilised, the trucker and the trike driver dead and the vanguard captured (but eventually released as he surrendered all his gear). Taken together the Dregs won all three vehciles and all the cargo., so this and the first attack can be be seen as a loss leader.

[juris]

That convoy lacked burst effect weapons and deserved what they got. All they needed was a Defender type vehicle with a turreted RR. Start putting rounds into the ground, catching multiple Outlanders in the burst. Cycles with exposed riders are a bad idea.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by juris

That convoy lacked burst effect weapons and deserved what they got. All they needed was a Defender type vehicle with a turreted RR. Start putting rounds into the ground, catching multiple Outlanders in the burst. Cycles with exposed riders are a bad idea.

They probably could have done better, but they were reacting to the situation as it unfolded rather than having the benefit of retrospective analysis of the optimal course of action.

The MML and BC are both burst effect weapons. The MMLs could never be brought to bear due to positioning. The BC burst caught all three bikes in the blast but had no effect. When it was fired direct it removed all the front armour and per the rules for bikes all the remaining damage was applied to a single component (which effectively killed the bike).

I don't think I was recommending default Outlanders. The point I was making here is that you don't need a killer main weapon to use bikes effectively. Speed and manoeuvre can keep you alive long enough to complete your goal.

These bikes had Component armour which effectively removes the threat of burst effect weapons (and mitigates to a degree the effect of FCE etc). The Outlander has plenty of free space and as CA is very space efficient on bikes and is cheap and light there is no reason not to protect every component. However there is no reason why non-CA equipped bikes have to ride in a convenient bunched up formation so you can kill multiples with your burst weapons. Bikes can emulate the 17th Century Caracol riding in line so that only the first bike is targetable and 3" apart to avoid burst effects. This cuts down the angle and makes targeting into anything other than the leaders side arc more difficult. It is not hard to slip past a fallen rider even assuming your burst effect killed the biker.

They had done the best they could as they had experience of fighting dismount and bikes. Even against dismounts with no CA 1d6 burst effect was rarely enough to kill someone equipped with cheap body armour (ABV, BA or BA+ABV), it generally took 2 shots at least and in a mobile fight you may not be able to get that second shot onto the same target before it has completed its objective.

You cannot optimise your convoy for a single enemy without weakening it against other threats. Replacing the BC on the Vanguard with a turret RR would have made no real difference and would have disadvantaged them in other fights.

You cannot believe there is a single "do this and bikes are negated" optimisation and not recognise that is the first thing bikers will rectify. If you just want your bike gangs to be paper tigers then I suppose you can, but it doesn't mean they cannot be something more challenging.

[43Supporter]

Try running that fight again -- but this time, nothing which isn't available from Pocket Box is allowed.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Try running that fight again -- but this time, nothing which isn't available from Pocket Box is allowed.

So no Rig, no trike, no wheel guards and no metal armour or BC for the Vanguard.

That's about as close a representation of what happened as the Batley Townswomen's Guild re-enactment of Pearl Harbour :)

Edit:

And according to my 3rd Edition pocket box, no burst effect weapons* either, so the whole discussion is moot.

But assuming we go for Deluxe CW (B&W) edition instead as that allows Rigs, burst effect but still no CA so bikes are still vulnerable and the deck is stacked in your arguments favour. Couldn't find BA there either so I guess they are as vulnerable as they come.


OK Batley Town Women's guild it is. The only variable here is if the Vanguard can kill the bikers since regardless of what equipment they had no-one else was in a position to fire. No CA for the bikes, but also no wheel guards for the cars.

I have just confirmed that if the bikes are travelling in a line at 3" spacing there is no way to get an overlap of a 2" burst that is within more than one cycles side arc. If the centre of burst is within the front arc of the bike the rider is not exposed as long as the bike has a single point of front armour. With a decent gunner and targeting computer you can probably pick exactly where you drop your pie-plate of doom. However even if the rider is killed if it was travelling in a straight line all results in Crash Table 1 will result in it continuing in the direction it was moving (either upright, spinning sideways or rolling (on fire or not). It may not have have any DPs when it arrives but it is still a collision risk. If it is more than 6" away there is no chance it will vault over the Vanguard, so even if it gets air time, it just means less debris on the road.

At a closing speed of 100 mph, at the point the Vanguard had turned enough to get the bikes in his firing arc (and also the point he would have been able to get a shot in the leaders side arc) they were 10" away. Before he could fire again the spinning or rolling bike would be about to hit him and will heavily constrain his fire arc and I couldn't get the impact point into the side arc of a bike unless he changed direction (which he didn't do for various reasons). If decides to take evasive action he might be able to target another side arc but now he is manoeuvring and the hit isn't guaranteed to incapacitate another bike.

Of course the pillions don't have ARs either, but the SMG is 1 better to hit and only does 1 point less damage so it evens out. As there is no double barrel shotgun, the riders will have SMGs as well and as they have more than one shot they will be firing on approach too, they might get another hit and cause a wiggle. With no metal armour available, these hits are actually removing armour (but there will be 5 times as much to remove of course). As the car has no wheel guards when they do decided to target them, it will end up taking twice as much damage as before and the wheel falls off just the same as before (with the same rolls). From this point on the game plays out the same (except there is a chance that the Off-Road damage to the trucks tires actually cause tire loss since the solids have less DPs in early versions of CW and as there are no ammunition constraints or wheel guards and hubs on the truck they will be a worthwhile target).

Of course since pocket and Deluxe used different manoeuvring systems, grenades damaged tires etc. this is a fairly pointless exercise. If you change the vehicles and the rules you use you might change the outcome - no surprises there. However, even in older versions of the rules motorcycles were still not an ignorable threat unless you drove them like an idiot.

*Except grenades of course. I had forgotten how brutal they were before they got toned down. All tires within 2" take 1d6 damage and even vehicular components within 2" take half damage. If the pillions had been using GLs (in Deluxe but not 3rd Edition and in Deluxe only 1/2" damage to tires in 2") the Vanguard would have lost all its tires before it even reached them :) It would have been a very different fight.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by swordtart

So no Rig, no trike, no wheel guards and no metal armour or BC for the Vanguard.

Almost -- you're correct in that there would be no Metal armor, no trikes, no Component Armor, and no Blast Cannons. However: There was a Pocket Box for semis (_Truck Stop_), so one could have a _Roughrider_ tractor towing a _Type Two_ trailer (not a lot of armor or firepower on either), with the escort van being a _Security Six_ or _Security Seven_ (again: Not perfect, but usable). The bikers, as noted elsewhere, might be rolling a bunch of _Shogun 200_s, with an _Outlander_ for support/salvage-carrying.

For these purposes: I might allow some _VG1_ designs, provided they don't have anything which isn't from the PBs -- for ex.: My go-to semi rig back-when was a _Wolverine_/_Collector_ combo -- not much firepower, but holy-mother-of-kitten did those things have armor.... .:)

The point being: There's a world of difference between the truly-basic-level of tech, and allowing later upgrades.

[HeatDeath]

One /big/ difference I can see between the Compendium version of this fight and the PocketBox version of this fight would be whether you're using a turning key or not.

Bikes turn /much/ faster without a turning key.

[The turning key turned bikes into [or at least moreso] terrible little cars with no side armor.]

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Almost -- you're correct in that there would be no Metal armor, no trikes, no Component Armor, and no Blast Cannons. However: There was a Pocket Box for semis (_Truck Stop_), <SNIP>

The point being: There's a world of difference between the truly-basic-level of tech, and allowing later upgrades.

Oh I thought you meant just the Pocket Box version of the basic game. If you are talking about any 1983 pocket box supplement then there is no reason not to include any other supplement that was contemporaneous (ADQ for example). That allows everyone GLs (and the CTS for the bikes) and as the grenade vs tire rules are still lethal the whole outcome becomes a crap shoot. Of course you can't really call on rules clarifications published after that point either and are entitled to use vehicle designs in those supplements for guidance (e.g. Nightstrike means you can have a bike with 2 sidecars with linked RLs).

The difference tech makes depends where you draw the line and that is entirely arbitrary in 2024 (or 2019 when we played out this scenario). If you were playing a game in Summer 1983 you could absolutely determine the tech level of the game by what rule set you owned at that time and all the ADQ&A would be compatible. Trying to apply a 1990's rules clarifications to a 1983 rule set is a config nightmare, especially if this franken-rule is different to the interpretation in a 1990's ruleset (which itself gets retconned in a different supplement).

We play by the most common ruleset we all own (compendium 2.5) and I posted the example of small scale attack by an inferior enemy to demonstrate that even a bike like the Outlander could be effective with a few simple upgrades and if played differently to "the bikers ride straight at you in a five of diamonds configuration 1" apart".

I still like using the old designs as it is a quick way to get variety into the game without spending hours creating new designs for NPC vehicles. I spend many happy hours/days whilst waiting between PBeM turns tinkering with them to bring them into the modern game without completely redesigning them (as I think these old things would flow down to the lower levels of the CW society). Easy cheap retrofits are entirely consistent with that ethos. The longer the players returns took, the more optimised they became.

I agree entirely with you that playing a different version of the game will give a different game experience.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by HeatDeath

One /big/ difference I can see between the Compendium version of this fight and the PocketBox version of this fight would be whether you're using a turning key or not.

Bikes turn /much/ faster without a turning key.

[The turning key turned bikes into [or at least moreso] terrible little cars with no side armor.]

To be fair, everything turns slower with a turning key (or rather uses up more HS to make the same turn). With a turning key at least the front corner moves 1" for both of them. The game definitely moved faster with turning keys.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing as having to play on a grid was a faff and vehicle's moved like 8bit computer graphics, but your mileage may vary.

[swordtart]

I think bikes are considered so inferior is the design philosophy.

Many scenarios start with player A gets $100K in a truck and cars, Player B gets $50K of bikes.

In this scenario bikes can be expected to lose. This is usually compensated by allowing the biker player slightly easier victory conditions (but not always)

What compounds the issue is that players will go for shogun 200/250 style bikes trying to get a killer design that can compete with a car (which they never do). They have no idea what sort of car and truck they will face. The convoy player knows the biker player is coming and that he has a much more limited variety of components.

Further the convoy player has to manage only 3 or 4 vehicles whereas the biker has to manage twice as many. The bikes have half as much time devoted to them and people tend to be uninventive when swamped. This is compounded in multi-player games as the tendency is to give each player an escort vehicle while the referee controls all the bikes. At a table game this is an overwhelming burden. If this is flipped on its head and the players control the bikes while the referee controls the convoy, the bike side generally performs far better.

What the biker should be doing is putting together a force of the cheapest bikes he can and capitalise on having 4 times as many firing actions as the convoy. With cheaper medium cycles you could field over a dozen cycles and still have money spare to equip each one with a pillion riders with hand weapons. That gives you a dozen MGs and a dozen hand weapons every turn to fire. At this point the sheer volume of fire starts to mess with the ability of the convoy to manoeuvre as they will. The convoy will rarely be able to take out more than a couple of bikes in a turn (and even these cheap bikes can be quite resilient and should be treated as such).

Focussing on an escort can quickly overwhelm it and once the convoy loses a vehicle it often loses a specialist meaning a gap opens in the convoy defences.

You can take a human wave option and really cheap out the bikes losing the vehicle weapon entirely and rely on numbers.

Shogun 50 by Swordtart:
Light Cycle; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Small Cycle PP; 2 Standard Radial tires.
Driver. Pillion Passenger.
12 pts. Sloped Plastic (F: 6 R: 0 L: 0 B: 6 T: 0 U: 0); 1xFake Guards F; 1xFake Guards B.
Cost: $1,486, Wgt: 736,
HC: 3, Top Speed: 125, Accel: 10.

This has good road performance and is hard to hit and can withstand a single hit from a 2d weapon. it relies on the pillions hand weapon. Give the pillion a SMG supplemented with a couple of grenades and a couple of smoke grenades it will run under $2K, less if you can use salvaged components.

You could field 25 of these. 25 attacks from an SMG might not seem much, but as the pillion can spend all his SPs on hand gunner (and the rider all his SPs on Cyclist so is likely getting a HC boost) you have a net base to hit of 5 after you take the hand weapon from a moving vehicle penalty into account. A couple of turns of sustained fire and you can be a threat from quite far out, far enough that the return fire might not be able to find you. Keep changing position in the pack and the convoy might not get to build up a sustained fire bonus.

If only half the bikes hit each turn (and if they approach right it will be more than that) and do only a single point of damage that is still 15 points per turn and -15 HS for the escorts (it won't bother the rig). That will at least end in the occasional skid and that will further impact their ability to lay on aimed fire.

Dropped weapons are easily avoided (or just stop before you get to them and go off-road after the convoy has moved on and re-attack a minute later, eventually they will run dry)

Once you have eliminated an escort you can drop off a few pillions as prize crew. You might call it a day there, or continue to harrass the convoy depending on your losses.

25 bikes are too many to have on the board from a logistics perspective and even in my Play By Facebook it would have been impossible to track the speed and HS of 25 vehicles, let alone have the time to give each bike the proper consideration. That is why we seldom see what this would actually be like.

One day it would be nice to get 30 experienced players on an online session and give each one a bike and see how it panned out.