OK, finally buying 4e... - Page 3

Gef · 01-11-2012, 09:10 AM

One that I actually use a lot is Power Ups 2, for perks. -GEF

lyobovnik · 01-11-2012, 09:26 AM

I gather that is both a list, and guidelines for making your own perks...

Is it slanted more towards one way or the other?

Refplace · 01-11-2012, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyobovnik

I gather that is both a list, and guidelines for making your own perks...

Is it slanted more towards one way or the other?

Definitely more a list. It combines all the perks from all the published material at the time it was written. Organizes them into categories also.
With it all in one place it could help you make a new perk but thats definitely not the focus of the book, nor is the book needed to make your own perks.

And yeah making the under the hood stuff more visible is one of the very nice things about 4E. Makes it a lot easier to make up your own stuff and keep it in line with published material.

roguebfl · 01-11-2012, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyobovnik

Wow, 4e has some neat goodies. I especially love how much more exposed the modification mechanics are.

GURPS Powers even more so, it show you how to to build your own power modifiers you you can use the System in Psionic chapter in the Basic set and build you own modifiers for for Magical Sorcerers, Chi wielding Martial Artists, Holy Champion, or Mutant Superheroes etc.

but more import the book focuses on exposing the modification mechanics even more like more guidance on how size acceptabilities etc

Refplace · 01-11-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl

GURPS Powers even more so, it show you how to to build your own power modifiers you you can use the System in Psionic chapter in the Basic set and build you own modifiers for for Magical Sorcerers, Chi wielding Martial Artists, Holy Champion, or Mutant Superheroes etc.

but more import the book focuses on exposing the modification mechanics even more like more guidance on how size acceptabilities etc

Second this.
POwers gives a lot of under the hood stuff and also new stuff but the bulk of the book is about how to emulate things. Psionics pretty much takes a few advantages and some optional rules from Powers and shows you how to build a leveled power system as well as good examples of how to use certain optional rules. The enhancements as techniques thing I had read in powers but never really grabbed it until I saw it in Psionics and since then I used it for lots of stuff :)

Gef · 01-11-2012, 12:31 PM

There are some very nice changes to the combat system especially relevant to melee combat as typical of a fantasy game. Some of the important ones allow you to wear down high defenses, like a Deceptive Attack. If you are highly skilled on attack facing an opponent who is highly skilled on defense, take a penalty to hit in order to apply a penalty to his defense roll. This does not require you to "waste" a turn, like a Feint.

Rapid Strike allows a second attack in one turn, at a stiff penalty, lessened for a cinematic fighter (Trained by a Master), but this is better than 3e which applied no such penalty. Defending against multiple attacks in one turn also suffers a penalty, so Rapid Strike is another way to wear down defense.

Martial Arts introduces the Telegraphic Attack, opposite of Deceptive. You take a bonus to hit, and the other guy gets a bonus to parry. The bonus helps offset the penalty to do something fancy, like a head shot, but against a skilled foe, you'll need to save this trick for occasions when his defense is compromised, like after you win a Feint, or he makes an all-out attack, or when he's stunned or simply unaware.

Between All-Out Defense and All-Out Attack, there are a couple of additional options. Defensive attack, for less damage and a bonus to defense. In the case of an axe, the benefit is that you can parry at all! Since axes do more damage than ordinary swords anyway, a defensive attack puts 'em on par with a sword, and they cost a lot less. A Committed Attack gives a bonus to hit or damage (or step) but imposes a penalty to defend, with the caveat that you can't defend with the weapon used for attack. Since that's normal for an axe anyway, no big loss.

MA also has a rule that gives two-handed weapons a bonus to parry multiple attacks consistent with historical writing on the topic, comparable to 3e giving fencing parries to katanas. Now they apply for a greatsword, too. (Of course, you're giving up a shield.) This works even better with a Defensive Grip, as long as you're in a hallway or a rank of warriors who protect your flanks. The fencing parry has been extrapolated to a general benefit for light weapons: The more your ST exceeds what's needed for the weapon, the better you can parry multiple foes.

There are also new techniques for weapons that take their shapes into account, like hooking with a bill or return strike with a flail: Bonk the guy on the BACK of his head. Along with the maneuvers you get some perks, like Weapon Adaptation (use your broadsword with a fencing skill) and Armor Familiarity (do Judo in armor) and Shield Wall (buys off penalty large shields).

You also get some customization rules for weapons. Ever wonder why you can't have a one-handed warhammer? Start with a mace, and add a backspike. It works great with all those rules I mentioned that help out axes, but if you add a topspike, you can stab like a spear without taking the weapon out of line for defense, or you can make a tip slash on those critters with Injury Tolerance who take little damage from anything but a cut. It's a brutal weapon (sw+2/imp) with Min ST 13 (you need that to wrench it out again, anyway), way cheaper than a sword.

Overall, lots of good stuff for warriors with medieval weapons. I urge you to run a tournament or gladiator scenario with test characters in order to give all the players a chance to experiment with these options and see how they play out and how they interact. Definitely do so before you start making houserules. I have found that when I don't like a combat rule in 4e, it probably means I don't understand it yet. In my opinion, the system is at its best when none of the cinematic stuff applies. One of these days, I'll run a realistic campaign - maybe using Crusades - where there's no magic or "chi" abilities.

GEF

lyobovnik · 01-11-2012, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gef

...Overall, lots of good stuff for warriors with medieval weapons. I urge you to run a tournament or gladiator scenario with test characters in order to give all the players a chance to experiment with these options and see how they play out and how they interact. Definitely do so before you start making houserules. I have found that when I don't like a combat rule in 4e, it probably means I don't understand it yet. In my opinion, the system is at its best when none of the cinematic stuff applies. One of these days, I'll run a realistic campaign - maybe using Crusades - where there's no magic or "chi" abilities.

GEF

The arena scenario sounds like a great way to familiarize our group with 4e low-tech melee. Thanks for the idea - chances are we'll do just that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

Also check out this, it's extremely useful... especially if you get Martial Arts.

That does look useful! Thanks. :D

roguebfl · 01-11-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyobovnik

The arena scenario sounds like a great way to familiarize our group with 4e low-tech melee. Thanks for the idea - chances are we'll do just that.

Though remember some of the good points and some of the draw backs f some tactics don't show up if the area is a 'featureless plan'. So make sure at least pay attention to the distant to the walls if not put obsticals like trench an bridged in the arena. thing like weapon reach and retreating.

lyobovnik · 01-11-2012, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Though remember some of the good points and some of the draw backs f some tactics don't show up if the area is a 'featureless plan'. So make sure at least pay attention to the distant to the walls if not put obsticals like trench an bridged in the arena. thing like weapon reach and retreating.

An obstacle-stocked arena! It shall be as you say. :)

Gef · 01-11-2012, 07:35 PM

Regarding 4e combat, here are some relevant posts from yours truly:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=11

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...20&postcount=1
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...55&postcount=1

This bit was true in 3e but I didn't really "get it" until 4e:
Two guys with shields and swords (reach 1). When first guy attacks, have second guy "retreat" sideways (reduce bonus for retreat by 1), to his attacker's non-shield side. Second guy gets his turn, he now steps to his foe's flank, completing a "run-around" attack. This gives -2 to the other guy's defense AND avoids the defense bonus of the shield. HOWEVER, the clever git who did this is now facing the wrong way, so he has to use a backstrike. That means he's at -2 to hit AND at -2 to his next defense.

01-11-2012, 09:10 AM	#21
Gef Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Yucca Valley, CA	Re: OK, finally buying 4e... One that I actually use a lot is Power Ups 2, for perks. -GEF

01-11-2012, 09:26 AM	#22
lyobovnik Join Date: Jun 2011	Re: OK, finally buying 4e... I gather that is both a list, and guidelines for making your own perks... Is it slanted more towards one way or the other?

01-11-2012, 12:31 PM	#26
Gef Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Yucca Valley, CA	Re: OK, finally buying 4e... There are some very nice changes to the combat system especially relevant to melee combat as typical of a fantasy game. Some of the important ones allow you to wear down high defenses, like a Deceptive Attack. If you are highly skilled on attack facing an opponent who is highly skilled on defense, take a penalty to hit in order to apply a penalty to his defense roll. This does not require you to "waste" a turn, like a Feint. Rapid Strike allows a second attack in one turn, at a stiff penalty, lessened for a cinematic fighter (Trained by a Master), but this is better than 3e which applied no such penalty. Defending against multiple attacks in one turn also suffers a penalty, so Rapid Strike is another way to wear down defense. Martial Arts introduces the Telegraphic Attack, opposite of Deceptive. You take a bonus to hit, and the other guy gets a bonus to parry. The bonus helps offset the penalty to do something fancy, like a head shot, but against a skilled foe, you'll need to save this trick for occasions when his defense is compromised, like after you win a Feint, or he makes an all-out attack, or when he's stunned or simply unaware. Between All-Out Defense and All-Out Attack, there are a couple of additional options. Defensive attack, for less damage and a bonus to defense. In the case of an axe, the benefit is that you can parry at all! Since axes do more damage than ordinary swords anyway, a defensive attack puts 'em on par with a sword, and they cost a lot less. A Committed Attack gives a bonus to hit or damage (or step) but imposes a penalty to defend, with the caveat that you can't defend with the weapon used for attack. Since that's normal for an axe anyway, no big loss. MA also has a rule that gives two-handed weapons a bonus to parry multiple attacks consistent with historical writing on the topic, comparable to 3e giving fencing parries to katanas. Now they apply for a greatsword, too. (Of course, you're giving up a shield.) This works even better with a Defensive Grip, as long as you're in a hallway or a rank of warriors who protect your flanks. The fencing parry has been extrapolated to a general benefit for light weapons: The more your ST exceeds what's needed for the weapon, the better you can parry multiple foes. There are also new techniques for weapons that take their shapes into account, like hooking with a bill or return strike with a flail: Bonk the guy on the BACK of his head. Along with the maneuvers you get some perks, like Weapon Adaptation (use your broadsword with a fencing skill) and Armor Familiarity (do Judo in armor) and Shield Wall (buys off penalty large shields). You also get some customization rules for weapons. Ever wonder why you can't have a one-handed warhammer? Start with a mace, and add a backspike. It works great with all those rules I mentioned that help out axes, but if you add a topspike, you can stab like a spear without taking the weapon out of line for defense, or you can make a tip slash on those critters with Injury Tolerance who take little damage from anything but a cut. It's a brutal weapon (sw+2/imp) with Min ST 13 (you need that to wrench it out again, anyway), way cheaper than a sword. Overall, lots of good stuff for warriors with medieval weapons. I urge you to run a tournament or gladiator scenario with test characters in order to give all the players a chance to experiment with these options and see how they play out and how they interact. Definitely do so before you start making houserules. I have found that when I don't like a combat rule in 4e, it probably means I don't understand it yet. In my opinion, the system is at its best when none of the cinematic stuff applies. One of these days, I'll run a realistic campaign - maybe using Crusades - where there's no magic or "chi" abilities. GEF Last edited by Gef; 01-11-2012 at 12:56 PM.

01-11-2012, 07:35 PM	#30
Gef Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Yucca Valley, CA	Re: OK, finally buying 4e... Regarding 4e combat, here are some relevant posts from yours truly: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=11 http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...20&postcount=1 http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...55&postcount=1 This bit was true in 3e but I didn't really "get it" until 4e: Two guys with shields and swords (reach 1). When first guy attacks, have second guy "retreat" sideways (reduce bonus for retreat by 1), to his attacker's non-shield side. Second guy gets his turn, he now steps to his foe's flank, completing a "run-around" attack. This gives -2 to the other guy's defense AND avoids the defense bonus of the shield. HOWEVER, the clever git who did this is now facing the wrong way, so he has to use a backstrike. That means he's at -2 to hit AND at -2 to his next defense.