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Old 02-11-2011, 01:21 PM   #21
Kuroshima
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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200 Points Work, 250 Points Work Better

This is where the bard is found. He's a composite character for the gamer who can't decide whether he likes fighting, magic, or sneaking best. For good measure, he also has all the world's social abilities tossed in on top, eating up their own share of the points. The "generalist problem" noted for the innkeeper compounded with the "not enough points for special abilities to really stand out" issue of many of the previous archetypes pushes the fun-to-play bard quite far up the power scale.

This is also where the martial artist lives – and he, too, faces a combination of two problems. The first of these is unique to him: You need lots of points to go toe-to-toe with monsters without using a weapon. Because weapons cost money and not points in GURPS, there's a systemic scaling problem wherein a fighter who plans to confront his foes barehanded needs 50 to 100 points more than one who uses weapons to take on identical foes. Not all martial artists go unarmed (smart ones don't!), but there's that second issue, which is our old nemesis "not enough points for special abilities to really stand out." It's hard to look different from "fighty thief" or "strangely armed swashbuckler" if you can't afford all the special abilities and skills.
Good breakdown, I mostly agree here, with all your suggestions. Only the martial artist CAN work at 150, IF you use Bladed Hands, since not only you avoid the issues with fighting unarmed (like giving your opponents free attacks against your hands) but you get to do swing damage AND get karate bonuses. Personally, at less than 200 points, I would forfeit Trained by a master, and take high Karate+Bladed Hands. Of course, that starts looking more like a Ninja wannabe than a Martial Artist wannabe, but at those point levels, they're hard to separate, since they don't have the points to go and take their special mumbo-jumbo.

There's one archetype that barely works with 250 points and really only starts working well at 300, and it's the Mystic Knight. At 250 points, you've got to be very very careful about where you spend your points. Once you get some more points, you get ER, higher skills to soak penalties (including the penalty to avoid spending FP), etc etc.
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Old 02-11-2011, 01:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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One of the chief reasons why the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy series ended up starting the PCs at 250 points – even though many people would have preferred 100, 150, or 200 points – is that 250 points is the level where all of the archetypes at least begin to be distinctive, fun, interesting, and somewhat capable of holding their own. How true this rings to you depends entirely on how skilled you are at beating up GURPS to get what you want. If you're new to the game, though, then you're still learning those tricks. Here's a rough guide.
In case you were not aware of this, Kromm is the guy who wrote GURPS 4e. As such, you can point your GM to his post as part of your effort to get him to give you more points. Also, I heartily second the recommendation that your GM should pick up GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 1 (and maybe 2) and follow its advice for your first campaign: minimize the culture shock, as it were.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

I'll do a simplistic breakdown of 3.5 the most iconic (IMO) monky stuff translated to GURPS (spirit, not letter, with the assumption that you'll only take what you need now and buy more later).

Improved Unarmed Strike: This is some version of Striker, probably Blunt, Cutting, Impaling or Piercing (depending on how deadly the secret techniques are!).
You should also buy Ambidexterity, or a 'Off-Hand Weapon Training (Karate)' Perk. Yes, Perk, not Technique (long story).

Stunning attacks: either an Affliction (-30% or so for being a mêlée attack instead of a projectile), or simply attacking the Vitals/Head/Brain locations.

Extra unarmed strike damage: levels Striking Strength (approximately -60% cost: only for Karate/Strikers & Kicks/etc.).

Flurry Of Blows: This is done with using either Rapid Strikes or Dual-Weapon Attacks (these are specific ways of performing attacks). Having the Trained By A Master advantage improves the former (and lots of other stuff, but it costs a whopping 50 points), while the Dual-Weapon Attack (Karate) Technique improves the latter (and costs a modest 5 points). Another option is Extra Attack, but you shouldn't even think about it early on.

AC Bonus: Acrobatics skill can be used for +2 to dodges (if you roll well); Retreating (stepping back when dodging) gives another +3. You can buy levels of Dodge for 15 points, but might want to just buy whole levels of increased Basic Speed for 20 points.

Still Mind: buy levels of Mind Shield.

Purity Of Body: Resistant (Nonmagical disease, Complete Immunity).

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Cosmic Modular Ability (-50% cost: languages only) is the easiest way for now.
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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everything
Wow! I go off to work and come back to find over two pages full of detailed and well written responses! I have to say that this community is AWESOME! While I haven't read all the responses (yet) it will give me something to do tomorrow.
EDIT: I'd especially like to thank Dr. Kromm for weighing in on the issue. Never thought I'd get a mini celeb (at least in this circle) to comment!

Last edited by RussellChamp; 02-11-2011 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

I would also point out that the D&D monk is not a purely unarmed fighter, but rather a specialist in both unarmed and vaguely-Asianish-exotic-weapons. If you wanted to emphasize that (and get a little better performance against armor to boot) you could go with Weapon Master (Monk Weapons) instead of Trained By A Master.

Shut up Firefox, I know Asianish isn't a word!
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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I would also point out that the D&D monk is not a purely unarmed fighter, but rather a specialist in both unarmed and vaguely-Asianish-exotic-weapons. If you wanted to emphasize that (and get a little better performance against armor to boot) you could go with Weapon Master (Monk Weapons) instead of Trained By A Master.

Shut up Firefox, I know Asianish isn't a word!
Does Weapon Master improve unarmed attacks?


Also, Molokh left out the drastically increased movement capability of the D&D3 Monk class. For starters, a level or to of Increased Move should be purchased, at 5 CPs per level. Later Enhanced Speed (Ground) should be bought. The later can take the -10% Chi power modifier, and it might be possible to put that on Increased Move as well, although then it should be purchased in increments of 2 levels, so that the PM actually reduces the cost (4.5 CP rounds up to 5).
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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I would also point out that the D&D monk is not a purely unarmed fighter, but rather a specialist in both unarmed and vaguely-Asianish-exotic-weapons. If you wanted to emphasize that (and get a little better performance against armor to boot) you could go with Weapon Master (Monk Weapons) instead of Trained By A Master.

Shut up Firefox, I know Asianish isn't a word!
While the D&D Monk can use a few melee weapons, by about level 4 they are no better than an unarmed attack, and they quickly become worse than fighting unarmed. In GURPS it would certainly make sense for the Monk to use weapons as his primary combat option, but it really doesn't match the assumptions of the D&D Monk.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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EDIT: I'd especially like to thank Dr. Kromm for weighing in on the issue. Never thought I'd get a mini celeb (at least in this circle) to comment!
You raise the right issues and you can get anyone to comment. High fantasy is one of Kromm's favorites. Powers threads will usually get a post from RPK. A gun thread is practically a Summon Hans spell.

The bigwigs in charge of GURPS never let a silly thing like the gaming business get in the way of the business of being gamers.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:04 AM   #29
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

Molockh, your GURPS-fu is weak!

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
You should also buy Ambidexterity, or a 'Off-Hand Weapon Training (Karate)' Perk. Yes, Perk, not Technique (long story).
Not needed, Karate already has no "off" hand
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Stunning attacks: either an Affliction (-30% or so for being a mêlée attack instead of a projectile), or simply attacking the Vitals/Head/Brain locations.
Or you could build it as Imbuement (Chi, one skill only, crippling blow)+crippling blow. Or you could simply use Pressure Points attacking the head
Quote:
Flurry Of Blows: This is done with using either Rapid Strikes or Dual-Weapon Attacks (these are specific ways of performing attacks). Having the Trained By A Master advantage improves the former (and lots of other stuff, but it costs a whopping 50 points), while the Dual-Weapon Attack (Karate) Technique improves the latter (and costs a modest 5 points). Another option is Extra Attack, but you shouldn't even think about it early on.
Trained by a Master costs 30 points, not 50, and it's a prerequisite of improving Dual Weapon Attack, unless the GM makes a special exception.
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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
While the D&D Monk can use a few melee weapons, by about level 4 they are no better than an unarmed attack, and they quickly become worse than fighting unarmed. In GURPS it would certainly make sense for the Monk to use weapons as his primary combat option, but it really doesn't match the assumptions of the D&D Monk.
Only he doesn't get the magical enhancements from magical weapons if he uses no weapon. The monk has intermediate BAB progression, and without the bonus to hit from magic weapons, he strikes as badly as the spellcasters with their bad BAB progression. At level 20, the difference can be over 10 points when compared to the fighter. Also, the increased die size isn't that much of a bonus: 2d10->Avg 11, +5 quarterstaff (1d6+5)->8.5. Considering that the quarterstaff could also have things like Ki focus/Flaming/Frost/Shock/Ghost Touch, on top of the enhancement bonus, the staff wins. Fighting unarmed is a player trap for the monk. Oh, and the monk is kind of jack of al trades, suck at all of them kind of guy: He needs Dex/Wis/Con/Str thus having a worse MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) than any other class. He can not fight toe to toe due to the low hit points (when compared to the fighter, paladin or barbarian), he has low BAB (My experience at high levels, is that yeah, you get two extra attacks, but your 3 best attacks are at the same bonus as the fighter's 3rd attack, that barely ever hits), his bonus feat options are not that good, most of his special abilities are borderline useless (Stunning Fist will almost never have any effect, since the DC to save against it is not that great, monsters have high Fortitude DC due to high con, and having to resist the fort or die spells from the spellcasters). You can act as a scout, but without Sneak Attack, or some other way to capitalize stealth, or detect and disarm traps, you're not very good at it. You can self heal for a pittance, less than the Paladin's Lay on Hands, and he can share it with others to insta-stabilize people at negative HP

I've been burnt off trying to play monks in a 3.5 game, does it show?
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:17 AM   #30
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Default Re: High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

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Only he doesn't get the magical enhancements from magical weapons if he uses no weapon.
Ah, I guess most of my 3.5 experience is from games like Neverwinter Nights, which let Monks purchase enchanted Gauntlets for to-hit and damage bonuses, and special damage effects like burning/freezing/lightning. I forgot that those aren't RAW D&D. The one time I played a Monk in tabletop D&D, I went the Monk/Kensai prestige path, which let me "Enchant" my fists (to a max of +10, though I never reached that level in it).

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