High fantasy monk archetype recomendations

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

No, no! I'm in GURPS and I want to play GURPS! I just have some past knowledge in D&D so if people phrase things similarly to D&D terminology I'll have a much easier time understanding them. That is all.

Sorry before I was posting from my phone. GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is a line of PDFs that aim at filling the Dungeon Delving niche with GURPS rules.

The one that would mostly interest you, for the purposes of this thread, would be GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 1: Adventurers, that provides you with 11 templates for the most common fantasy archetypes (Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Holy Warrior (D&D Paladin), Knight (D&D Fighter), Martial Artist (D&D Monk), Scout (D&D bow Ranger), Swashbuckler, Thief (D&D Rogue) and Wizard), along with a pruned list of skills and traits, to use in dungeon delving games, some dungeon delving gear, etc etc.

As I said, the templates are 250 points each, but Eric B. Smith, with the help of other forum posters, has created Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap (Also available in PDF), that aims at providing you with 100, 150 and 200 point versions of the templates, so you can play at lower levels (The general capability, in very broad terms, of starting DF characters seems to be at around level 7-8 of D&D 3.5 in my experience)

It's basically a guide on how to run this sub-genre of fantasy with GURPS, and I really recommend it. Also, the second volume of the series, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2: Dungeons will probably prove useful the the GM.

[Kazander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Combat Reflexes is mandatory. It's the first thing you buy. It is extremely worthwhile, relative to its price.

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I'm pretty sure the GM is planning on being generous with situations, PC "luck", and possibly even awarded character points (maybe I can convince him to give us upwards of 10 points per session to get us quickly to that 150pt range)

A couple of thoughts here. Combat Reflexes is Very Important, yes. But, in my experience, it's also one of few advantages that it is pretty easy to justify the purchase of during play.

From another point of view, does it make sense that a starting character, probably with little to no experience, has an advantage that basically turns your character into a combat veteran? You're rarely surprised, you never 'freeze', and you can react before you think. This isn't a starting character in my opinion.

So, given that you expect to gain points very quickly, I wouldn't include this as part of your 100 point build. Spend those points on things that may not be easily gained in play.

Also, I'll echo the fact that 100 points is very low for what you want. If you want High Fantasy, you'd best look to start at 250. If you're going to stay at 100, I'd talk to your GM and convince him to give everyone Luck or Extraordinary Luck for free. It might keep you alive longer. :-)

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I think I remember reading about some OP skills in the starter book like Pressure Places (or some name like that) that could do a lot of damage.

That would be Pressure Points. It has a prerequisite of the Trained By A Master advantage. You're going to need that anyway to be a martial artist who can survive against people in heavy arnour and big weapons. However, it is expensive. Pressure Points is also IQ-based, and you don't have the points for good DX and good IQ.

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I'm also planning on taking some level of Claws, too. Would changing damage from Bludgeoning to Slashing or Piercing make any big changes here?

Not big changes; some kinds of armour are better against one or the other. The biggest effect of damage type is how much wounding it inflicts once it reaches flesh.

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I know this is getting off the main topic a bit, but what would be the approximate level of a D&D monk (or maybe any character) to a 100pt/150pt/200pt total (starting+points you get back from disadvantages) GURPS character? This would be in terms of ability to take down enemies and any applicable out of combat abilities. Would 100pts be somewhat analogous to level 1 or is that way off?

It doesn't readily translate. GURPS characters have hugely variable combat power at any given points level, and being a good all-rounder is very expensive. Even at much higher point levels, specialisation is required. And combat is always dangerous in any kind of fair fight.

Given your setup, what I'd do is take ST 11, IQ 10 DX 13 HT 11, for 80 points, Combat Reflexes for 15, and about 40 points of disadvantages plus five quirks to afford some skills. I'd then concentrate on Judo for the judo throw and arm lock moves. Those don't kill people, but they make it much easier for your fellow party members to do so. If I had 150 starting points, I'd add Trained By A Master; if not, I'd save those 10 points per session towards TBAM, plus the cinematic skills that it enables.

But you need to accept that people who use weapons and armour wil always have an advantage over you if they are on similar point totals and a similar degree of orientation towards combat. Unarmed combat arts are generally invented under circumstances where weapons and armour aren't readily available, or for times when they can't be used.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I think I remember reading about some OP skills in the starter book like Pressure Places (or some name like that) that could do a lot of damage. I'm also planning on taking some level of Claws, too. Would changing damage from Bludgenoning to Slashing or Piercing make any big changes here?

Pressure Points or Pressure Secrets are skills as opposed to advantages. Some campaigns may not let you take a straight up advantage, but may allow cinematic martial arts skills. It's up to the GM.

In all cases (except for power blow which doubles (!) your ST if you make the skill roll) neither the cinematic skills nor the claws give you more damage. They just make it hurt a lot more if you get through armor.

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I know this is getting off the main topic a bit, but what would be the approximate level of a D&D monk (or maybe any character) to a 100pt/150pt/200pt total (starting+points you get back from disadvantages) GURPS character? This would be in terms of ability to take down enemies and any applicable out of combat abilities. Would 100pts be somewhat analogous to level 1 or is that way off?

It's weird. There are some D&D-isms at 1st level like a housecat being able to kill a mage, so there's not really a straight analogue. But I'd say a general guideline is that 150 points spent on a combat-focused character translates roughly to 2-3rd level, and 250 points gets you roughly 5-7th level.

The big thing is that high stats tend to cost a lot more in GURPS than the value they're assigned in D&D, so a Str 18 fighter in D&D would be a lot of points in GURPS, making it fairly common in a 1st level D&D Fighter but fairly rare in a 100 point GURPS character.

[Anders]

A housecat in GURPS has Brawling 14 and Dodge 10. It can easily confine itself to Defensive Attacks and rip apart any commoner that walks by...

[Peter Knutsen]

A few hours ago, I did a quick attempt at making a karate monk on 150 CPs, with 50 CPs in disads and 5 unspecified quirks, and -10% Chi on everything except Combat Reflexes.

I think I did a reasonable job, but there's no way that character concept can be made to work on 100 CPs. With the edition change, from 3rd to 4th edition, points became worth less.

100 CP is now underpowered.

Also, as soon as GM intervention starts to happen, it becomes highly debatable whether a game is actually being played at all. It's much more fun when the the player character party has autonomous survivability. And that costs points.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by RussellChamp

I think I remember reading about some OP skills in the starter book like Pressure Places (or some name like that) that could do a lot of damage. I'm also planning on taking some level of Claws, too. Would changing damage from Bludgenoning to Slashing or Piercing make any big changes here?

I think your only options to get through armour, are to increase raw damage (such as Striking ST, overall ST, or the damage bonus from high Karate skill), or to get some kind of actual armour-percing ability, such as via Imbuements. It's a long while since I read the writeup for the Pressure Points/Secrets skills, but I'm prety sure that if they do increase damage, they increase only that component of the damage that makes it past the target's DR. Claws help only insofar at it increases your raw damage.

Also keep in mind, you need the ability to strike at armoured foes without injuring yourelf. There's at least one way of getting that, but I can't remember what it is. Perk or Limited DR or something... (Claws might help with that... not sure.)

[Kromm]

One of the chief reasons why the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy series ended up starting the PCs at 250 points – even though many people would have preferred 100, 150, or 200 points – is that 250 points is the level where all of the archetypes at least begin to be distinctive, fun, interesting, and somewhat capable of holding their own. How true this rings to you depends entirely on how skilled you are at beating up GURPS to get what you want. If you're new to the game, though, then you're still learning those tricks. Here's a rough guide.

—

100 Points Work

It's easy to play a 100-point assassin, barbarian, knight, scout, swashbuckler, or thief. Just buy as much of your archetype's key attributes and secondary characteristics as you can afford, along with the right skills, and you're done! The gamers who most intensely dislike the 250-point start are often fans of these character types. Some even feel that special abilities and spells should come later, and not be something you start with.

150 Points Work

The holy warrior and unholy warrior are basically knights with special gifts. Their holy/unholy capabilities add a premium. You can't see this as clearly in the 250-point template because 250 points are more than enough to let a basic warrior afford either lots more fighty stuff (knight) or lots of special gifts and a fair bit more fighty stuff (holy/unholy warrior).

The innkeeper is the consummate generalist – that's his shtick. At 100 points, generalists end up being mediocre at a great many things, and mediocre gets you killed in the dungeon . . . so players tend to focus on just a few things, which of course means they're no longer playing generalists. There's nothing wrong with being "the innkeeper who does only X," but that misses the archetype's point; you might as well be a warrior type or a thief. At 150 points, you can manage enough DX, IQ, and skill breadth to stand out.

Most spellcasters – cleric, demonologist, druid, elementalist, evil cleric, necromancer, and wizard – come into their own at 150 points for a different reason. Namely, while you can build them on 100 points, their unique capabilities don't contribute enough to combat and adventuring activity at that level to be interesting. The issue isn't so much survival as "running out of energy and ending up bored . . . and boring." It makes a massive difference to be able to afford most or all of lots of FP, an Energy Reserve, skill high enough to reduce casting costs, and Signature Gear for a huge power item.

150 Points Work, 200 Points Work Better

The artificer, ninja, scholar, and shaman all have a chunky sets of core abilities that make 200 points even better than 150 if being distinctive and fun is what matters. An artificer without Quick Gadgeteer and sufficient IQ to have a good breadth of craft skills at high levels is just "a guy with a wizard's brains but nothing to contribute to the group." A ninja without high DX and complicated special training abilities also ends up feeling kind of cut down – like a generic warrior with a weird ethnic bent. The scholar's special gifts get upstaged by everybody else's until he has enough IQ and advantages for his flexibility to matter. And shamans on a budget won't be able to afford the Allies they depend on to be interesting . . . and Allies reflect the shaman's own power level, so the ones they do have won't be very impressive.

200 Points Work, 250 Points Work Better

This is where the bard is found. He's a composite character for the gamer who can't decide whether he likes fighting, magic, or sneaking best. For good measure, he also has all the world's social abilities tossed in on top, eating up their own share of the points. The "generalist problem" noted for the innkeeper compounded with the "not enough points for special abilities to really stand out" issue of many of the previous archetypes pushes the fun-to-play bard quite far up the power scale.

This is also where the martial artist lives – and he, too, faces a combination of two problems. The first of these is unique to him: You need lots of points to go toe-to-toe with monsters without using a weapon. Because weapons cost money and not points in GURPS, there's a systemic scaling problem wherein a fighter who plans to confront his foes barehanded needs 50 to 100 points more than one who uses weapons to take on identical foes. Not all martial artists go unarmed (smart ones don't!), but there's that second issue, which is our old nemesis "not enough points for special abilities to really stand out." It's hard to look different from "fighty thief" or "strangely armed swashbuckler" if you can't afford all the special abilities and skills.

—

Anyway, the "monk" archetype is the martial artist I noted above. Which is to say, you've chosen one of the few character types that faces problems in low-powered play. You may want to revisit that decision or convince the GM to allow more points (at least 200). If your group is open-minded and not terribly competitive, you might be able to swing a deal wherein you're simply worth more points than the others. This isn't all that weird – in old-school dungeon games, including D&D and AD&D First Edition, random rolls for attributes, hit points, starting money, etc. effectively made some PCs better than others anyway. A group that could accept that should be able to accept GURPS PCs at different power levels.

Good luck and have fun!

[Cpt_Clyde]

Here is a monk template I made for our (low-level) fantasy campaign (125pt) for newbie GURPSers.
Nothing too special but may be of some inspiration.
Mileage may vary.

Monk [41]
-Ambidextrous [5]
-Extra Attack [25]
-Enhanced Defence (Dodge) [15]
-Enhanced Defence (hand Parry) [5]
-Combat Reflexes [15]
-Acrobatics [1]
-Karate [2]
-Trained By a Master [30]
-Meditation [1]
-Stealth [1]
-Power Blow [1]
-Pressure Points [1]
-Pressure Secrets [1]
-Breath Control [1]
-Body Control [1]
-Theology [1]
-Vow (Never refuse request for aid) [-15]
-Vow (Donate to needy, may not own more then he can carry) [-15]
-Discipline of Faith (Mysticism) [-10]
-Wealth (Dead Broke) [-25]
Description:
Almost always orphaned children, Monks are promising disciples of the faith who have been taken in and shown the secret ways of
unarmed combat. They are trained vigorously and martial combat, theology and high moral standards. Once they reach maturity in the
ways of life they are commissioned to travel the lands helping those in need and giving to the poor.
It has been mused that the monkhood is the under privileged man’s Paladin-hood.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Clyde

Here is a monk template I made for our (low-level) fantasy campaign (125pt) for newbie GURPSers.
Nothing too special but may be of some inspiration.
Mileage may vary.

Monk [41]
-Ambidextrous [5]
-Extra Attack [25]
-Enhanced Defence (Dodge) [15]
-Enhanced Defence (hand Parry) [5]
-Combat Reflexes [15]
-Acrobatics [1]
-Karate [2]
-Trained By a Master [30]
-Meditation [1]
-Stealth [1]
-Power Blow [1]
-Pressure Points [1]
-Pressure Secrets [1]
-Breath Control [1]
-Body Control [1]
-Theology [1]
-Vow (Never refuse request for aid) [-15]
-Vow (Donate to needy, may not own more then he can carry) [-15]
-Discipline of Faith (Mysticism) [-10]
-Wealth (Dead Broke) [-25]
Description:
Almost always orphaned children, Monks are promising disciples of the faith who have been taken in and shown the secret ways of
unarmed combat. They are trained vigorously and martial combat, theology and high moral standards. Once they reach maturity in the
ways of life they are commissioned to travel the lands helping those in need and giving to the poor.
It has been mused that the monkhood is the under privileged man’s Paladin-hood.

Now what I would recommend to a newbie. This has many traps for the unwary.

First, Karate is only worth it when you've got some more points invested. at 2 points, he has it at DX-1, and no damage bonus. For those points, he could have Brawling at DX+1, and also no damage bonus. Also, Pressure secrets requires Pressure Points 16, and I doubt that this character has that with only 1 point into PP.

Finally, the Enhanced Defenses are nice, but overpriced at this point level. He would get much more out of spending those points into extra attributes or skills.