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Old 03-02-2014, 04:59 PM   #1
RogerBacon
 
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Default [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

So if Alice has 8 cp on Betty, giving her a -4 to ST and DX) does that mean Betty, normally ST 8, can't use the dagger in her hand (mim ST 5)?
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Old 03-02-2014, 05:26 PM   #2
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

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Originally Posted by RogerBacon View Post
So if Alice has 8 cp on Betty, giving her a -4 to ST and DX) does that mean Betty, normally ST 8, can't use the dagger in her hand (mim ST 5)?
That seems to follow, remember you can still use a weapon whose ST you don't meet, but you are at -1 to weapon skill per point of ST you lack and lose one extra FP at the end of any fight that lasts long enough to fatigue you.
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Old 03-02-2014, 05:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

I'd say yes, theoretically, but no, in practice...just because it's one more thing to track and not worth the effort.
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Old 03-02-2014, 05:40 PM   #4
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
That seems to follow, remember you can still use a weapon whose ST you don't meet, but you are at -1 to weapon skill per point of ST you lack and lose one extra FP at the end of any fight that lasts long enough to fatigue you.
Yes. It's a mere -1 to skill.

But also remember 8 CP is equivalent to a maximum-CP grab from Trained ST 17. For a ST 8 person, this should mean serious problems. Striking with a -4 ST and a -4 DX plus a -1 for being unable to leverage the weapon doesn't seem unreasonable.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with it, but with the example of 8 CP . . . yeah, that's a lot, and if you're not very strong and/or skilled, it should affect you a lot.
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Old 03-02-2014, 05:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Yes. It's a mere -1 to skill.

But also remember 8 CP is equivalent to a maximum-CP grab from Trained ST 17. For a ST 8 person, this should mean serious problems. Striking with a -4 ST and a -4 DX plus a -1 for being unable to leverage the weapon doesn't seem unreasonable.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with it, but with the example of 8 CP . . . yeah, that's a lot, and if you're not very strong and/or skilled, it should affect you a lot.
I'm with ya. Even if you could though, wouldn't it mean you effectively have a -5 to skill (-4 from DX, -1 from not being able to meet the minimum ST requirement). That's...huge. I wonder if you could just grapple the hand the weapon is using to make it useless? That hasn't been a case that has shown up in my games yet (my players like neck snaps, max CP "kill strikes," and other fight ending moves) and TG is a lot to take in. Even for a rules-geek. ;-)
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:02 PM   #6
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
I'd say yes, theoretically, but no, in practice...just because it's one more thing to track and not worth the effort.
Probably this is the best answer. Yes, the lower ST should impact all uses of that ST, and in the original draft, you could even lose enough ST that you collapsed under your own weight.

I think *I* killed that as too fiddly even before my playtesters could get on me for it.

But yeah, if you are wielding a weapon and you're being grappled such that you aren't strong enough to meet the ST requirements, you may well take extra penalties.

Peter's also correct: 8 CP is no joke. and she'll be -5 to use that weapon, -4 to DX for all other purposes, and effectively ST 4 as well.

But in practice, I'd probably just say she's -4 to ST and DX, and get on with it. That -4 to ST can also be leveraged to -4 to swing and -2 to thrust damage with that dagger if you want to go that far. :-)
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

This question becomes much weightier for someone using a weapon that's closer to their own ST. For example, a ST 12 fighter with a Mace would suffer effectively -8 to skill (-4 DX, and 4 points under Min ST). That kind of rings true to me (if you're already struggling with weapon weight, being grappled will make it that much worse) but I worry that it might not be balanced.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

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This question becomes much weightier for someone using a weapon that's closer to their own ST. For example, a ST 12 fighter with a Mace would suffer effectively -8 to skill (-4 DX, and 4 points under Min ST). That kind of rings true to me (if you're already struggling with weapon weight, being grappled will make it that much worse) but I worry that it might not be balanced.
The only way to really answer balance questions is to try them out in play, and see what feels right. This will definitely be different from group to group, but if you are going to try it, I'm interested in hearing the result.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:15 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
This question becomes much weightier for someone using a weapon that's closer to their own ST. For example, a ST 12 fighter with a Mace would suffer effectively -8 to skill (-4 DX, and 4 points under Min ST). That kind of rings true to me (if you're already struggling with weapon weight, being grappled will make it that much worse) but I worry that it might not be balanced.
Thing is that mace is also going to suffer from close combat penalties as well (even with a technique* it will at best at reach 1 be at -2 to hit) or -4 to hit without the technique.

so we're talking about three sources of penalties:

1). close combat penalties -2 or -4 in this instance
2). -4 to DX so -4 to skill and -4 to hit.
3). -4 to ST would mean 4 below Min St here so another -4

so all in all -10 or -12 that's a lot and the reduction in damage will be also be -4 to ST to calculate Swing and then another -1 on top because he's in Close combat!

So if he is ST12 he's going from basic skill and 1d6+5 damage to -10/12 skill and 1d6 damage

Obviously a high MinST, reach 1, swung weapon is going to suffer badly here, a MinST 4, C reach thrust Dagger will do better.

But then I can't imagine a worse weapon in wrestling than a mace being swung for crushing damage (one being used as a lever to pin, strangle etc might be better of course).

However If I was going to have all this I'd probably only count CP directly applied to that particular arm (not referred stuff) but now we are rapidly approaching my personal max threshold of diminishing returns against increased complexity. And even then I'm not sure about doing this you do need your torso to drive arm strength.

Personally I can see the argument for doing this, but In reality I think it will be over kill and will further advantage the Strong over the weak. I do like the visual of two chaps each with a knife each with their free hand on the others knife wielding wrist

*a hard technique that will cost 5 pts for a reach 1 weapon

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-03-2014 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Technical Grappling] Does the ST penalty affect mim ST to use a weapon?

You're already suffering a penalty to DX, which worsens your chance to use the weapon, so a penalty to ST that worsens your chance to use the weapon feels like double-counting (even if it is for two different reasons).
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