[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I ruled the halberdier could Parry by pulling unbalancing the guy's strike -

That's far from unreasonable, but it's also explicitly forbidden by the rules. It's also not unreasonable to expect the fact that the mobility of the weapon is greatly compromised by the necessity to keep a grapple on a resisting foe would make it harder to prevent said foe from grabbing a hold of it.

My prefered solution would be to allow Parry as an Active Defence, but to penalise it for the need to retain the grapple. I think I'd prefer it if Defensive Grip didn't count, as you are now holding the weapon in an entirely different way, and I would base the Parry level either on Hook or Armed Grappling.

I'd probably only allow this against attempts to grab or Bind your weapon or grapple you, not against Break Free attempts (as that could be unfair and make high Hook unbeatable).

Originally Posted by Varyon

In your case, I'd say Mikey, particularly with his high strength and long Reach (I ruled the hammer could only strike the metal-and-wood part of the halberd, while a greatsword could easily reach the just-wood portion), would probably be best served by striking at the halberd itself, leaving his opponent with a quarterstaff at best (probably more like a light club). Tournament rules might allow his opponent to disengage and grab a new halberd, resetting things (which is still in Mikey's favor).

Tourney swords are blunted and weapons are surprisingly tough. Not that Mickey couldn't sever a wooden shaft with a proper sword, I guess, but I'm guessing he'd have trouble with a blunted tourney blade.

Aside from that, if he can strike the halberd, he can also Armed Grapple or Bind Weapon* it. That might be superior. Not to mention the fact that he can use Break Free.

In all cases, though, Master Braelgar will get an Active Defence. If only Dodge is allowed without giving up his grapple on Mickey, that means a defence of 9 or less, which is not likely to succeed. If he can roll Polearm-based Parry at no penalty and with the Defensive Grip bonus working normally, he's rolling against Parry 20 instead.

That's quite a difference.

*He has Skill Adaptation (Bind Weapon defaults to Two-Handed Sword), using the large cross-guard of typical examples.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That's far from unreasonable, but it's also explicitly forbidden by the rules . . . My prefered solution would be to allow Parry as an Active Defence, but to penalise it for the need to retain the grapple.

It is explicitly allowed by the rules: The thing you do here to defend while you're grappling or being attacked by a grapple is a Hands-Free Parry (TG, p. 22-23). Adapt that or use it straight-up. "Parrying by yanking on the shield" or whatever is exactly the sort of below-resolution move that Hands-Free parries are designed to emulate.

Edit: I see you took the "unarmed" thing as meaning "only if grappling unarmed" rather than "you may only do this rolling against an unarmed skill." It's the latter. I recall Michael has Wrestling at a very high level, as well as Judo. Pick the most favorable accounting for what he's trying to do, and do a Hands-Free Parry based on that skill. The restriction proscribing "unarmed" is to prevent a single weapon skill from encompassing the entire body of knowledge that the unarmed skills grant. Armed skills are grappling skills, but they don't cover everything, and we put that in there to ensure that a properly made weapon fighter has a weapon skill and an unarmed skill of some sort.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It is explicitly allowed by the rules: The thing you do here to defend while you're grappling or being attacked by a grapple is a Hands-Free Parry (TG, p. 22-23). Adapt that or use it straight-up. "Parrying by yanking on the shield" or whatever is exactly the sort of below-resolution move that Hands-Free parries are designed to emulate.

On p. 22, it is explicit that you can only use unarmed combat skils for such Parries:

"If an opponent attacks you with a grappling
move (not a strike) against which you would be permitted
a parry, you may parry using any unarmed combat skill and
specify that this defense is a “technical parry” or a “counter”:
an attempt to thwart the attack by shifting position rather than
interposing hands."

I agree that this should be possible, but in that case, the italicised unarmed needs to be replaced with something along the lines of 'unarmed combat skill or applicable weapon skill when grappling with it'.

Unless you mean that when you have achieved an Armed Grapple or Hook with a weapon, you can use this rule to Parry, but not with the weapon skill, Hook or Armed Grapple; but only if you also know an unarmed skill. That actually seems reasonable to me and is a good reason for the inclusion of Wrestling in all those low-tech warrior builds. :)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Unless you mean that when you have achieved an Armed Grapple or Hook with a weapon, you can use this rule to Parry, but not with the weapon skill, Hook or Armed Grapple; but only if you also know an unarmed skill. That actually seems reasonable to me and is a good reason for the inclusion of Wrestling in all those low-tech warrior builds. :)

Our replies crossed in the ether. Yes, it's this. You must derive your hands-free parry from an unarmed skill.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Our replies crossed in the ether. Yes, it's this. You must derive your hands-free parry from an unarmed skill.

Cool. Master Braelgar's Wrestling Parry of 17 is terribly high, of course, but not as high as his Polearm Parry of 21.

If he can use it against attempts to Break Free too, Mickey is in a lot of trouble. And incidentally, Hook is a terrible, terrible thing to do to someone.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Our replies crossed in the ether. Yes, it's this. You must derive your hands-free parry from an unarmed skill.

What about, as in this case, where you cannot reach your foe with your body (because you've got him grappled at Reach 2) and you are using a weapon that is Unbalanced?

Even if you are using an unarmed skill to execute the counter or technical parry, it still requires you to pull the foe out of position with the weapon you Hooked him with. And if that weapon was used to Attack last turn, it would ordinarily be unavailable for Parry.

An unarmed Parry would normally not be allowed, because the target of the opponent's attack is two yards away from you. Is it allowed in this case because you are using a weapon that extends your Reach? And if so, are you bound by the Unbalanced property of the weapon?

If it is not, then masters will usually be unable to Break Free from one another, as their Parries may be incredibly high and after achieving a grapple which penalises the other party by -4 or more, it is unlikely that he will be able to overcome the unpenalised Parry of the master with a grapple. This is fairly realistic in close combat, of course, but it seems odd that weapons using Hook achieve a grapple every bit as secure as a full Nelson (more so, really, because of the higher CP for weapons).

[Icelander]

You need limbs to use Break Free and while those can be any limbs allowed not currently used to grapple with, Break Free doesn't default to applicable Melee Weapon skills, only DX and unarmed grappling skills.

What do you do when you are grappled by a Hook at Reach 2 and are holding a two-handed weapon. Can you use the weapon to Break Free, by leveraging the weapon using Hook away from you, or must you drop it in order to use Break Free?

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That's 2d+4, if I am not mistaken, which becomes 8 CPs, which is -8 to ST and -4 to DX for actions involving Sir Michael's right leg. Edit: No, damn it, it means -4 to ST and -2 to DX to actions involving said leg. That also means at least a -2 to ST and -1 to DX to all actions and -4 ST and -2 DX to whole-body actions, including attacks made with his sword. I'm guessing that Dodge and resisting take-downs would sum the whole-body penalty and the leg penalty, for a total of -8 ST and -4 DX? Or does the leg penalty not matter for that purpose?

As you mention in your edit, 8 CP is -4 to ST and DX on the Leg. Referred control to all other locations is 4 CP, and so -2 to ST and DX. Whole body penalty is the sum of head and torso referred controls, which is 4 (referred head) + 4 (referred torso) = 8 CP, or -4 to ST and DX for whole body. Note that the leg is only adjacent to the torso, the active CP from the sweep can only be spent on techniques affecting that leg or the torso, not arms, neck, or head, or the other leg.

Note that since his leg is hooked, Sir Michael has a grapple on the halberd already, albeit with 0 CP. If he is sufficiently stronger or more skilled, he could try to disarm his opponent through a break free directly, rather than trying to add a limb and then break free. Or add a limb as part of a rapid strike, given how high his Wrestling is.

Wrestling Trained ST 30 and Skill 25 vs TST 21 and Skill 22. Using just the leg in a gesture of supreme contempt, it is (0.6 x ST 20) = 18 +5 (DX+10 TST) = ST 23 -4 = 19, or 2d-1 CP.

He is likely to hit (Skill 25 +6 (Evaluate) -14 = Skill 17 and -7 Deceptive attack vs Wrestling Parry 14 -7 = 7), and has reasonable odds of reducing the hook to 0 CP, negating the hook. If he is less contemptuous and uses his own hook to hook Sir Braelgars arm, he would be developing CP of his own to spend on the QC, impose his own Active Control penalties, and make it MUCH harder for Sir Braeglar to increase his CP, as he would have active control on the arm, not just referred control from the leg (which will penalize any use of the 2-handed halberd).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by chandley

As you mention in your edit, 8 CP is -4 to ST and DX on the Leg. Referred control to all other locations is 4 CP, and so -2 to ST and DX. Whole body penalty is the sum of head and torso referred controls, which is 4 (referred head) + 4 (referred torso) = 8 CP, or -4 to ST and DX for whole body. Note that the leg is only adjacent to the torso, the active CP from the sweep can only be spent on techniques affecting that leg or the torso, not arms, neck, or head, or the other leg.

Since Sir Michael's ST is 20, aren't DX penalties accumulated at half the rate of ST penalties ('Bigger and Stronger' p. 9)?

Originally Posted by chandley

Note that since his leg is hooked, Sir Michael has a grapple on the halberd already, albeit with 0 CP. If he is sufficiently stronger or more skilled, he could try to disarm his opponent through a break free directly, rather than trying to add a limb and then break free. Or add a limb as part of a rapid strike, given how high his Wrestling is.

Nothing that allows Master Braelgar a Parry is likely to succeed. If not for Master Braelgar's ability to Parry at 17+ with his polearm even while using it to grapple, Sir Michael would like to grab the halberd using his longsword, either with Armed Grapple or Bind Weapon.

As it is, I don't think that's a realistic possibility. He'd attack at skill 19 or so and that means he could perform one attack at effective skill 11 with a -4 (becomes -3) barely reducing Master Braelgar's defence or he could make two attacks at 16, with neither one having the slightest chance of hitting without a critical.

Originally Posted by chandley

Wrestling Trained ST 30 and Skill 25 vs TST 21 and Skill 22. Using just the leg in a gesture of supreme contempt, it is (0.6 x ST 20) = 18 +5 (DX+10 TST) = ST 23 -4 = 19, or 2d-1 CP.

Doesn't the -4 ST from the grapple affect this?

Originally Posted by chandley

He is likely to hit (Skill 25 +6 (Evaluate) -14 = Skill 17 and -7 Deceptive attack vs Wrestling Parry 14 -7 = 7), and has reasonable odds of reducing the hook to 0 CP, negating the hook. If he is less contemptuous and uses his own hook to hook Sir Braelgars arm, he would be developing CP of his own to spend on the QC, impose his own Active Control penalties, and make it MUCH harder for Sir Braeglar to increase his CP, as he would have active control on the arm, not just referred control from the leg (which will penalize any use of the 2-handed halberd).

The Evaluate bonus has been used, for the unsuccessful Feint, so Mickey doesn't have that. He also has at least -2 DX and perhaps more, due to the CPs Master Braelgar has on his leg.

And Master Braelgar has Parry 22 with his halberd normally and Parry 18 with Wrestling, I think. At least that's what I calculate from skill 28 with Polearm, skill 26 with Staff and skill 24 with Wrestling; Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Parry 2 (all); as well as Grip and Form Mastery with the Halberd to parry with it in a Staff grip using Defensive Grip .

So Sir Michael is pretty much guaranteed not to hit with anything that allows a Parry, unless he uses one or more of Riposte, Feint and a high-value Deceptive Attack. None are especially feasible with his DX reduced against Master Braelgar's full Parry.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Since Sir Michael's ST is 20, aren't DX penalties accumulated at half the rate of ST penalties ('Bigger and Stronger' p. 9)?

Yeah, though it is still off the 8 CP total for Whole body. You had a much higher number going there.

Doesn't the -4 ST from the grapple affect this?

Thats what the -4 in the line is, from the grapple. Or -2 given his ST 20+.

And Master Braelgar has Parry 22 with his halberd normally and Parry 18 with Wrestling, I think. At least that's what I calculate from skill 28 with Polearm, skill 26 with Staff and skill 24 with Wrestling; Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Parry 2 (all); as well as Grip and Form Mastery with the Halberd to parry with it in a Staff grip using Defensive Grip .

Didnt know about the Enhanced Parry or CR. That does change things. Cant parry with the polearm, but could parry with Wrestling (vs the break free attempt).

Given the polearm is in use, Sir Michaels best choice is probably to take a whack at the arm, trying for shock penalties and possibly a cripple. Polearm cant parry (in use for the hook) and wrestling cant either without dropping the polearm (needs two hands to parry). That leaves a dodge.