Adapting Third Edition Templates To Fourth Edition

[Otaku]

Hey all. The short version is that I was having fun adapting the many, many templates from GURPS Warriors and GURPS Rogues (both Third Edition books) to the Fourth Edition Rules. Then it stopped being fun, not just for the sheer volume, but as I encountered more and more places where I just didn't know how to do the conversion. Yes, even with GURPS Template Toolkit 1 and Toolkit 2 to help me. It doesn't help that I've come to realize I not only don't know Fourth Edition all that well, but finally realizing how often I misunderstood (or just missed) the rules for Third Edition. ^^'

Perhaps an even bigger source of embarrassment is that my searches for such threads on the board turned up nada. Or maybe too much; basically, I couldn't find the relevant threads on my own and I am assuming someone had done this before me. So... yeah, if someone even marginally more competent than myself has already done this, feel free to link to the appropriate places.

Well, that was the original, expected discussion. Turns out what I seek isn't already out there. As help was offered, I'll take it. Here is a link to a Google document that contains what I've got so far. Initially, I just went for the most direct conversion I could manage of the Third Edition template. As we're not converting characters, I am not worried about preserving things like Basic Lift and Basic Damage when it comes to 3e ST versus 4e ST. What matters most is if a character built using the template works. They should be able to adequately perform as per the demands of the template, and we should find a balance between "perfectly optimized" and "a good starting point for character design".

Some templates may already have 4e counterparts. There is a "Warrior" template in GURPS Martial Arts for Fourth Edition. This can easily be used to make someone who is a knight, an archer, etc. So why bother adapting things like the Heroic Knight and Archer templates from GURPS Classic Warriors? Besides practice for this the templates that lack such modern counterparts, these can be taken in a different enough direction to justify them. Considering that, at the time of this edit, the Heroic Knight is now simply the Knight, with the more Heroic bits separated out into a Lens, I'm hoping others are still game for this kind of thing.

Template Names will remain the same. Correction: that was the plan, but the very first template we tackled (Heroic Knight) has undergone enough changes that I now refer to it simply as the Knight template. I now am trying to allow that some templates? They too may change enough to justify altering the name, or the differences between then and now may similarly necessitate such revisions.

Template costs listening to others, we will aim for costs that end in "0" or "5" for the templates and their lenses. We will also allow for templates being much more costly, again due to the fundamental differences between Third Edition and Fourth Edition.

Attributes: We start out with the Third Edition templates scores but with their Fourth Edition costs. We're not worried about things such as preserving the Basic Lift of the Third Edition template. We are worried about the functionality of the Attributes... and maybe avoiding things getting too high.

Secondary Characteristics: Basic Lift and Encumbrance thresholds are going to be higher due to the Fourth Edition rules being more generous.
HP was based on HT and FP was based on ST due to Third Edition rules; I will simply assign values based on the Fourth Edition rules. Unless the role the template fills calls for something different.

Advantages, Disadvantages, Quirks, and Skills will be converted to their Fourth Edition equivalents, should they exist. Anytime a Skill requires Specialization and (Any) is listed, this does not override what is appropriate to the campaign or character concept.

For example, your Barbarian might have Boating/TL6 (Motorboat) when the campaign TL is at least TL7, but not if it is a TL5 setting. Even if the setting is TL7+, your Barbarian still may not be permitted Boating/TL6 (Motorboat) if other aspects of the campaign prohibit it.

Lenses follow the guidelines mentioned above, but these are the best example of something I’ll often have to fiddle with so that multiple options that had the same cost in 3e end up with the same cost in 4e.

Heroic Knight [130 points] (p005-009)
Attributes: ST 12 [20], DX 13 [60], IQ 11 [20], HT 12 [20].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2 HP12 [0] WILL 11 [0] PER 11 [0] FP 12 [0] Basic Speed 6.25 [0] Basic Move 6 [0]
Advantages: Status 2 [10], Wealth: Comfortable [10]
Disadvantages: Duty: Liege Lord (9 or less) [-5] and -25 points of mental disadvantages chosen from Charitable [-15*], Code of Honor (Chivalry) [-15], Compulsive Behavior (Vowing) (12) [-5*], Honesty [-10*], Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents) [-10], Selfless [-10], Sense of Duty (Nation) [-10], Truthfulness [-5*], and Vow (Never refuse a request for aid) [-15].
Primary Skills: Broadsword (A) DX+1 [4]-14 or Axe/Mace (A) DX+1 [4]-14, Lance (A) DX+1 [4]-14, Riding (Any) (A) DX [2]-13, Shield (E) DX+1 [2]-14.
Secondary Skills: Leadership (A) IQ [2]-11, Tactics (H) IQ [4]-11.
Background Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Any) (A) IQ-1 [1]-10, Heraldry (A) IQ-1 [1]-10.

Lenses
Courtly Knight (+16 points): Add +1 IQ [20], Enemy (Political faction) (Medium-sized Group, Hunter, 6 or less) [-10], Dancing (A) DX-1 [1]-12, Diplomacy (H) IQ-1 [2]-11, Falconry (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-11, Games (Chess) (E) IQ [1]-12, and Politics (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-11. This kind of knight should not be Illiterate.
Dragonslayer (+19 points): Add +1 DX [20], Overconfidence (12) [-5*], Biology/TL3 (Planety, Zoology) (H) IQ-1 [2]-10, Bow (A) DX-1 [1]-13, and Tracking (A) PER-1 [1]-10.
General (+12 points): Add Charisma 2 (adds +2 to Leadership) [10], Bloodlust (12) [-10*], +1 Leadership [2], +1 Tactics [2], and Strategy (H) IQ+1 [8]-12.

[Stormcrow]

Converting third-edition templates to the fourth edition is problematical. The fourth edition relies on a bunch of new ways to get the effects you want without simply bumping up your basic attributes to get it. The GURPS Update document is good for converting existing characters between editions if you don't want to give up your character when you switch, but the conversions are more brute force than subtle.

Honestly, the best way to turn third edition templates into fourth edition templates is to fully understand what the third edition template is trying to achive, then put it away and promise yourself not to look at it while you try to build the template correctly for the fourth edition. Start from first principles; don't borrow numbers or traits from the original template.

[Infornific]

There's a couple of key elements in conversion - in some cases rules changes modified skills, advantages, etc. In others, they changed the best way to create a specific character concept. I'm assuming you're already using the old conversion guide. For converting GURPS Warriors, I would make the following suggestions:

1. Point totals in 4e are 1.5* higher, so take the template's cost and multiply by 1.5. I would round up to the nearest multiple of 5. E.g., the Light Foot Soldier is 60 points in 3e so shoot for 90 in 4e.

2. In 3e, it made sense to buy a high DX even if you had just one DX based skill you wanted at a high level. This is not the case for 4e so for templates where there's just one or two important DX based skills consider lowering DX and upping points in skills. Archer and Sharpshooter are prime examples of this. If the template has a wide range of DX based skills or high DX seems important to the concept then keep DX as is.

3. IQ isn't as clear a case - it is more expensive in 4e but so is buying up IQ based skills. Consider looking at whether Per or Talents might be more efficient for the template.

4. Just a personal preference - I'd make sure all templates have a HT of 11.

5. Characteristics are more distinct in 4e than 3e. I'd probably raise Speed for most of these templates to 6.0. Higher Per is also worth looking at for some templates.

6. Consider adding Talents to Advantages. In some cases making one or two levels mandatory might make sense. E.g., the Aviator might be better off with Hot Pilot 2 and DX & IQ dropped to 11. You mentioned you have the Power Ups: Talents supplement - that should be very handy for some of these templates.

7. Likewise, consider adding Advantages where appropriate, e.g., the Gladiator & Swordsman might benefit from Weaponmaster. You can guess what Advantage to add to the Gunslinger.

8. Disadvantages listed are usually only -20 or -25. Consider adding another -5 or -10 if you can't quite make a template fit.

9. Shoot for the same net skill levels for primary skills, regardless of changes to DX and IQ. E.g., I'd drop the Sharpshooter to a DX of 12 but keep the Guns skill at 18.

10. There are certain skill quirks for 3e that show up repeatedly. Tactics (Drill) isn't really a thing in 4e so I would replace it with Soldier or Tactics, whichever works for the campaign. Also note that Body Language had a significant combat use in 3e. It does not in 4e so I would drop it for the Gladiator.

11. One very important 3e quirk - IQ gave bonuses to Guns skill. So you will need to sink more points in Guns, Gunner, etc to maintain the same skill level.

12. And of course no 1/2 point skills in 4e. Unless you want to mess with the Dabbler Perk.

Hope these suggestions are useful. I could make suggestions for specific templates if you'd like.

[Otaku]

Thank you both for the advice. I don't think I can pull off your approach, Stormcrow, as the reason I want these templates is because I'm not good enough to work out the stuff on my own with either Third or Fourth Edition. Which does not mean what you said is wrong. ;)

Which means I'll be trying most of what you said, Infornific.

Originally Posted by Infornific

I could make suggestions for specific templates if you'd like.

I'll try to start posting what I've got, then. I'll probably add it to the first post, since that might become the focus of this thread.

Edit: And first template is posted above.

[lugaid]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Point totals in 4e are 1.5* higher, so take the template's cost and multiply by 1.5. I would round up to the nearest multiple of 5. E.g., the Light Foot Soldier is 60 points in 3e so shoot for 90 in 4e.

That's an estimate that came up after directly convertinig a few characters. More properly, point values should be related to the intended role in a setting. So, 3E has:

Below-Average - 15 pts or less
Average - 25 pts
Above-Average - 50 pts
Experienced - 75 pts
Hero Material - 100 pts
Full-fledged Hero - 150 pts
Truly Outstanding - 200 pts
Superhuman - 300 pts or more

and 4E has:

Feeble - under 25 pts
Average - 25-50 pts
Competent - 50-75 pts
Exceptional - 75-100 pts
Heroic - 100-200 pts
Larger than Life - 200-300 pts
Legendary - 300-500 pts
Superhuman - 500-1000 pts
Godlike - over 1000 pts

which is all similar to 1.5×, but in some cases (I'm thinking particularly of the range of 15-200 pts) can be understood to correspond pretty closely between editions in intention, if not necessarily in game-mechanical exact ability. That is, if you want a character that is below average, 15 pts works in either system. If you want someone who is on the edge of being heroic, 100 pts works either way, though as noted a direct conversion from one system to the other will typically see a 100 pt 3E character weighing in at around 120-160 pts in 4E, which people rounded to about 1.5×.

An example, albeit an early one, is the Caravan to Ein Arris adventure, in which starting characters are 100 pts in the 3E version with replacement characters being built on the same value, or 125 pts in the 4E one—although the 4E one also suggests that players make replacement characters, if one is lost, on 100 pts. (Note: I would strongly suggest rebuilding the NPCs in the 4E version of the adventure to better reflect 4E assumptions; in 3E, levels of skill were typically more inflated than they would be in a generic 4E game, and those high skill levels were largely retained in the published 4E conversion, so that a "typical brigand" is assessed at Broadsword-16 or Bow-15, skill levels that are normally associated in 4E with elite commandoes and such.)

[Pursuivant]

Any GURPS 3e conversion requires a bit of art in addition to rules knowledge.

The reason that you haven't seen many threads on this topic is because most denizens of this forum are extremely experienced with both GURPS 3E & 4E and do such conversions as a matter of course.

If you're not so experienced with the rules, it's a legitimate topic of discussion.

The way I do GURPS 3E to 4E conversion is:

1) Point Costs: Forget them for now.

2) Attributes

2A. Use GURPS Update to get the proper ST conversion. That's THE big issue between the two editions.

2B. Once I've got proper ST, I take a look at HT/HP. In many cases, it makes sense to drop HT by a bit if the original template was boosting HT to boost HP. In such cases, add HP to the new template as necessary.

2C. Take a look at IQ & DX. In some cases, GURPS 3E levels of these traits were too generous. For occupational templates, possibly drop them slightly and use Talents to make up the difference in character point costs.

3) Next, I go hunting for skills, advantages, and other traits that got changed or didn't make the cut for GURPS 4E. I have to make executive decisions here as to what to change and what to just drop.

4) Once I've got a sense of levels what GURPS 3E advantages can be converted to GURPS 4E Secondary Characteristics, I do them. Alertness = Per bonuses, Strong/Weak Will = Will modifications, etc.

5) Skills - First, a quick change of name for skills that just got a new ID in GURPS 4E. Second, eyeball skill levels based on new 4E attribute levels. I generally retain original skill levels, and just rework point costs.

6) Point Costs - Calculate the new GURPS 4E point cost. If the new cost seems excessively high or low, time to use basic GURPS 4E character design knowledge to increase or reduce point costs to get a reasonable point value. Ditto if you're trying to base a template on a set number of points. Otherwise, ignore point costs.

That said, there WILL be some GURPS 3E builds which will be tricky to convert - like psionics users, users of magical Knacks, or characters whose main shtick is Jinx or Being of Pure Thought.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Attributes: ST 12 [20], DX 13 [60], IQ 11 [20], HT 12 [20].

Using the ST conversion from GURPS 3E to 4E, ST should be 11, but GURPS 4E ST 12 is minimal for a low-tech warrior, so good design choice.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2 HP12 [0] WILL 11 [0] PER 11 [0] FP 12 [0] Basic Speed 6.25 [0] Basic Move 6 [0]

You could save a few points by dropping Will & Per to 10, but not exactly necessary or desirable for an adventurer.

No changes between 3E and 4E for advantages or disads.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Primary Skills: Broadsword (A) DX+1 [4]-14 or Axe/Mace (A) DX+1 [4]-14, Lance (A) DX+1 [4]-14, Riding (Any) (A) DX [2]-13, Shield (E) DX+1 [2]-14.
Secondary Skills: Leadership (A) IQ [2]-11, Tactics (H) IQ [4]-11.
Background Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Any) (A) IQ-1 [1]-10, Heraldry (A) IQ-1 [1]-10.

You've gone for a straight conversion here, retaining skill levels. That makes sense given the nature of the template. The only omissions are problems with the original template itself. No unarmed combat skills (dangerous for a melee fighter to not have), no Savoir-Faire (important for a noble). No optional skills.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Courtly Knight (+16 points): Add +1 IQ [20], Enemy (Political faction) (Medium-sized Group, Hunter, 6 or less) [-10], Dancing (A) DX-1 [1]-12, Diplomacy (H) IQ-1 [2]-11, Falconry (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-11, Games (Chess) (E) IQ [1]-12, and Politics (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-11. This kind of knight should not be Illiterate.

This lens has a sneaky rule from GURPS 3E, changed in GURPS 4E. GURPS 3E assumed that Illiteracy was the default for all characters prior to TL5. That implies that the standard knight could have reduced Written Language fluency as an optional disad. Realistic for historical knights, annoying for GURPS players.

Enemy doesn't need to specify "Hunter" - it is assumed unless you specify something else.

Again, oddly no SF skill in the original template. No optional skills. Enemy could be altered to be a single powerful individual with a higher frequency of appearance. Again, problems with the original template - Not Your Fault.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Dragonslayer (+19 points): Add +1 DX [20], Overconfidence (12) [-5*], Biology/TL3 (Planet, Zoology) (H) IQ-1 [2]-10, Bow (A) DX-1 [1]-13, and Tracking (A) PER-1 [1]-10.

Biology doesn't typically need to specify a planet type - Earth-like is assumed. It could easily be swapped for Expert Skill (Natural Philosophy), Hidden Lore (Dragons), or Naturalist. Again, problems with the original template.

Originally Posted by Otaku

General (+12 points): Add Charisma 2 (adds +2 to Leadership) [10], Bloodlust (12) [-10*], +1 Leadership [2], +1 Tactics [2], and Strategy (H) IQ+1 [8]-12.

Talent: Born War Leader or similar could be substituted for Charisma, but no problems technically.

[Otaku]

Here is my revised take on the Heroic Knight template, after applying most of what Pursuivant suggested.

Heroic Knight [131 points] (p005-009)
Attributes: ST 12 [20], DX 13 [60], IQ 11 [20], HT 12 [20].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2 HP12 [0] WILL 11 [0] PER 11 [0] FP 12 [0] Basic Speed 6.25 [0] Basic Move 6 [0]
Advantages: Status 2 [10], Wealth: Comfortable [10]
Disadvantages: Duty: Liege Lord (9 or less) [-5] and -25 points of mental disadvantages chosen from Charitable [-15*], Code of Honor (Chivalry) [-15], Compulsive Behavior (Vowing) (12) [-5*], Honesty [-10*], Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents) [-10], Selfless [-10], Sense of Duty (Nation) [-10], Truthfulness [-5*], and Vow (Never refuse a request for aid) [-15].
Primary Skills: Broadsword (A) DX+1 [4]-14 or Axe/Mace (A) DX+1 [4]-14, Lance (A) DX+1 [4]-14, Riding (Any) (A) DX [2]-13, Shield (E) DX+1 [2]-14.
Secondary Skills: Leadership (A) IQ [2]-11, Tactics (H) IQ [4]-11.
Background Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Any) (A) IQ-1 [1]-10, Heraldry (A) IQ-1 [1]-10, Savoir-Faire (E) IQ [1]-11.

Lenses
Courtly Knight (+19 points): Add +1 IQ [20], Enemy (Political faction) (Medium-sized Group, 6 or less) [-10], Dancing (A) DX-1 [1]-12, Diplomacy (H) IQ-1 [2]-11, Falconry (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-11, Games (Chess) (E) IQ [1]-12, Politics (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-11, and add +2 to Savoir-Faire [3].
Dragonslayer (+19 points): Add +1 DX [20], Overconfidence (12) [-5*], Biology/TL3 (Zoology) (H) IQ-1 [2]-10, Bow (A) DX-1 [1]-13, and Tracking (A) PER-1 [1]-10.
General (+12 points): Add 10 points chosen from Charisma [5/level] and/or Talent: War-Born Leader [5/level], Bloodlust (12) [-10*], +1 Leadership [2], +1 Tactics [2], and Strategy (H) IQ+1 [8]-12.

What changed:

• I added Savoir-Faire to Background Skills.
• The General Lens now allows the player to choose two levels of Charisma, two levels of War-Born Leader, or one level of each.
• No note about Charisma (and now War-Born Leader) adding to Leadership.
• No note about Illiteracy.

Additional Questions:

1. How freely can I pull things from sources other than the Basic Set?
2. Do I need a note about Charisma/War-Born Leader adding to the Leadership Skill? If so, how ought I to format it?
3. Do I need to list a Specialization for Savoir-Faire? I assumed the default of High Society would apply, which doesn't need listing.
4. Should I change the "Dragonslayer" lens to a more generic "Monsterslayer"? Either way, what is the best way to represent knowledge about a creature with the specialization of hunting it down and killing it?
5. Did I properly format the change for the General Lens?
6. Should I bother with the note about it adding to the Leadership Skill? If so, how should I write it up?
7. How much should I worry about an adventuring knight versus a historically accurate knight or what would be expected in your typical, fictional knight?

Let me expand a bit on that last one. As a player, I too prefer having fallback options for unarmed combat, be they unarmed combat skills or a way of having access to a weapon when one normally would not. However, is that something this template should incorporate, or would it be better reserved for a campaign-specific list of recommended traits?

Assuming I ought to add unarmed combat Skills, should I be pretty specific or aim to keep the template more generic? While I am not requiring the template's CP cost end in "0" or "5", this would be a convenient, spending 4 CP on unarmed combat Skills is a convenient way to do so. I am leaning towards adding Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-14 and Wrestling (A) DX [2]-13. Does this make sense for such a template? Will such levels suffice, and if so, would I list them as Primary, Secondary or Background Skills? I have no idea what knights were historically taught. ^^'

[mlangsdorf]

Answers to some of your questions:

Either way, what is the best way to represent knowledge about a creature with the specialization of hunting it down and killing it?

The DF series uses Higher Purpose (Slay Monstertype) - such as Slay Demons, Slay Undead, or Slay Dragons - for dedicated monster hunters. It gives the slayer a +1 on all rolls regarding the monster: identification rolls, attack rolls, defense rolls, damage rolls.

A monster hunter would also have some skills to identify the monster - Hidden Lore, Naturalist, Occultism, whatever is appropriate. Depending on how much detail the campaign goes into, Phiysiology (Monster Type) and/or Psychology (Monster Type) would be appropriate, but in my games, I roll both of those into Hidden Lore.

How much should I worry about an adventuring knight versus a historically accurate knight or what would be expected in your typical, fictional knight?

Is your game about historically accurate knights, adventuring knights, or fictional knights? There are 3-4 different "knight" templates in various 4e sources, varying from "thug with a fancy name" (DF's Knight) to "fighting knight with a code of chivalry" (Fantasy's Knight, IIRC) to "landowner with Status 2, Wealth, and some Duty" (Kromm's essential knight from the forums).

Being a knight meant different things at different times, and the right answer depends on your game. If your game is about fighting in the historical Crusades, your knight template is going to change depending on which Crusade you're talking about, and would be fairly different from knight template you'd use for a political game about the creation of the Magna Carta, despite that event happening during the Crusades.

If you're looking to recreate some semi-generic fighting type templates, I'd probably lean toward the "typical fictional knight" or adventuring knight. But I've also spent over a decade running Dungeon Fantasy games, where the Knight template implies strong, skilled man at arms in heavy armor without any promise of a Code of Honor, Status, or Wealth. So you could lean more toward adventurer if you wanted.

However, is [unarmed combat] something this template should incorporate, or would it be better reserved for a campaign-specific list of recommended traits?

Historical knights that were trained in fighting were trained in unarmed combat - at least one of the canonical knightly combat martial arts styles includes Judo. My experience is that unarmed combat is generally a waste of points in most adventuring games unless unarmed combat is your life* - there just aren't that many reasons to lose your weapons and keep fighting. So adding unarmed skills, presumably as secondary skills, could go either way.

* Focused wrestlers and martial artists can be terrifying, but it's a pretty specialized build.

[dcarson]

Although I'd expect any fighter type to have 1 point in one of Brawling, Boxing or Wrestling.