Ideas:'Revolutionary' late 2030s Handgun for Black Ops/Horror/lite Sci-Fi setting

[Donny Brook]

2030 is eight years away, so it may not qualify as TL9 by then quite yet.

You could look at the TL8 weapons and give them all the best upgrades available in the Gun Smithing rules (in Tactical Shooting, I think), e.g. Acc improvements, and weight reduction.

Or maybe a revolver with 8 chambers and an electric cylinder drive -- RoF 8.

Other things to consider are external to the weapon, like partial exoskeletons to help carry/manage a larger weapon. A M134 minigun on a shoulder-waist mobile mount for example.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

2030 is eight years away, so it may not qualify as TL9 by then quite yet.

"Late 2030s" I assume means somewhere between 2037 and 2039, so 15-17 years from now. Probably not enough to be in anything more than rather-early TL9, but a lot depends on how things progress in that fictional world (and how things actually were in 2022 in that world - don't forget films like Eraser had functional, rifle-sized EM weapons for the baddies available, indeed the plot revolved around them, despite the fact it was meant to be "current day" ... which was 1996 when the film was released).

[FrackingBiscuit]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Some Googling shows several 7.62 NATO "pistols," but those all have the magazine well right in front of the trigger guard, rather than in the grip - but with a nearly 3-inch-long cartridge, going in the grip is simply not an option.



That's a single-shot weapon, which I don't think will work well as a sidearm.

Those are really the only two ways to make a rifle-cartridge pistol. As you say, you can't have a rifle magazine inside the pistol grip. So it's either going in front/behind the firing hand, leading to a factor un-pistol-like form factor, or it's eschewing a magazine altogether, which means it's likely a single-shot weapon.

And to be honest, I think if someone is in a situation where their survival hinges on some monstrous handgun and they miss their first shot, they probably aren't going to get a second shot off anyway. Especially considering the really big rounds that have been brought up tend to be Rcl 4 or higher, I really don't expect this hand cannon to be used for anything but single shots.

If you really need multiple shots, you can try a double-barrel setup, or even some colossal derringer. But at that point you might be better off with a bullpup PDW or a carbine with a folding stock, which will have the same Bulk as any of these guns (or better, in the case of Bulk -4 Deagle).

[Willy]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

TSNIP

If you really need multiple shots, you can try a double-barrel setup, or even some colossal derringer. But at that point you might be better off with a bullpup PDW or a carbine with a folding stock, which will have the same Bulk as any of these guns (or better, in the case of Bulk -4 Deagle).

My idea, too but it was asked for a handgun not a cut down riffle.

You can of course take a bolt action rilfe ans saw off the stock and or part of the barrel. Or you take the good old wippet aka double barreled shotgun without stock and sawed off barrel. Both would fit under a jacket and give you a second shot, and enough punch to stop such a beast - if you can hit them. This weapons should have heavy ac penalities.

But while you may can aquire them legal if you have a hunting license in GB, the endproduct you carry with you, will be illegal as hell in nearly every place on earth.

By the way if you want to go over the top you can build a custom silencer for the cut down rifle, which needs at least as much space as the rifle to be effective. Making a threat in the barrel and the silencer are easy tasks for the guy who cut your rifle down. But the old plastic bottle with duct tape will give you nearly the same option for the first shot

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

Those are really the only two ways to make a rifle-cartridge pistol. As you say, you can't have a rifle magazine inside the pistol grip. So it's either going in front/behind the firing hand, leading to a factor un-pistol-like form factor, or it's eschewing a magazine altogether, which means it's likely a single-shot weapon.

... or you make a revolver, as I suggested. I mean, maybe modern revolver technology wouldn't be able to build something that can handle the chamber pressures of a rifle round - but that would be an engineering problem that could potentially be overcome in the next 15 years, if it is indeed a current issue (I honestly doubt it, outside of very high-pressure ammunition - obviously nobody is making a revolver that fires .50 BMG!).

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

And to be honest, I think if someone is in a situation where their survival hinges on some monstrous handgun and they miss their first shot, they probably aren't going to get a second shot off anyway. Especially considering the really big rounds that have been brought up tend to be Rcl 4 or higher, I really don't expect this hand cannon to be used for anything but single shots.

An extreme-power weapon like this probably shouldn't be firing at more than RoF 1, yeah. But missing your first shot (or hitting but failing to put the target down) won't necessarily mean you die instantly, and there's always the possibility of multiple hostiles (a pack of werewolves rather than just one, say), in which case having 6 shots before needing to take a few seconds to reload is better than only having one shot before needing to do the same. Of course, having an external magazine you can just drop and swap, in addition to perhaps holding more than 6 rounds at a time, would be ideal... but rifle rounds are typically too long to be able to both keep the convenient pistol profile and have detachable magazines.

[FrackingBiscuit]

Originally Posted by Varyon

... or you make a revolver, as I suggested.

I'm not aware of any rifle-caliber revolver, barring much older cartridges. Given that rounds like .500 S&W and .454 Casull have around the same maximum pressure as 5.56mm NATO and are around the same size, I would imagine the problem is that rifle rounds don't handle the escaping gasses of a revolver cylinder so well. I may be wrong though.

An extreme-power weapon like this probably shouldn't be firing at more than RoF 1, yeah. But missing your first shot (or hitting but failing to put the target down) won't necessarily mean you die instantly, and there's always the possibility of multiple hostiles (a pack of werewolves rather than just one, say), in which case having 6 shots before needing to take a few seconds to reload is better than only having one shot before needing to do the same.

I would assume that if I'm fighting a werewolf at pistol range and miss my first shot, I'm not going to have time to try again. That doesn't mean "instantly dead" - it means whatever I do probably doesn't involve reloading or lining up a second shot while the werewolf is pouncing on me. Even moreso if I'm fighting an entire pack. Hence why the character in question is also carrying an electrified sword - you don't bring a knife to a gunfight for the same reasons you don't bring a gun to a knife fight.

[Agemegos]

The problem with hugely powerful cartridges for handguns is not making the cartridges, nor even making pistols strong enough. Enthusiasts have been making and failing to sell overpowered pistols that “no-one who fired it once was willing to do so again” at least since the Mars Automatic Pistol (developed in 1900), and probably earlier for big revolvers.

Huge cartridges would not be revolutionary. We already have S&W Model 500 revolvers and Desert Eagles in .50 Action Express. They are impractical as weapons because their cartridges are too powerful.

[Polydamas]

Another issue with rifle rounds in handguns is that they may not reach full velocity before they run out of barrel.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

The problem with hugely powerful cartridges for handguns is not making the cartridges, nor even making pistols strong enough. Enthusiasts have been making and failing to sell overpowered pistols that “no-one who fired it once was willing to do so again” at least since the Mars Automatic Pistol (developed in 1900), and probably earlier for big revolvers.

Huge cartridges would not be revolutionary. We already have S&W Model 500 revolvers and Desert Eagles in .50 Action Express. They are impractical as weapons because their cartridges are too powerful.

That is similar to what I said back on page 1 of this thread. I do get the impression that the change in handgun energies between 1910 and 1990 was partially a materials issue, but I don't think there is much room for increase there. OTOH, a Black Op with preternatural strength or the ability to carry things heavier and bulkier than ordinary people in our reality want to carry might be able to use one of those overpowered handguns effectively.

Edit: in GURPS terms, see "Extra-Powerful Ammunition" GURPS High-Tech p. 165, GURPS Tactical Shooting p. 77 for the fancy high-powered versions of pre-1914 handgun cartridges sometimes used today

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

I'm not aware of any rifle-caliber revolver, barring much older cartridges. Given that rounds like .500 S&W and .454 Casull have around the same maximum pressure as 5.56mm NATO and are around the same size, I would imagine the problem is that rifle rounds don't handle the escaping gasses of a revolver cylinder so well. I may be wrong though.

My guess would be that rifle bullets would escape from short pistol barrels before the propellant in a rifle cartridge had deflagrated. Most of your power would go into muzzle blast instead of energy of the bullet. Furthermore, rifle and carbine barrels had to be at least about 350 mm long to stabilise a rifle bullet. And a pistol usually lacks the sights to take advantage of rifle-bullet external ballistics. A powerful pistol cartridge is different from a rifle cartridge, with a wider, shorter, heavier bullet and faster-burning powder.

ETA: crossed in the mail with Polydamas’ post above, which makes the same point.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

OTOH, a Black Op with preternatural strength or the ability to carry things heavier and bulkier than ordinary people in our reality want to carry might be able to use one of those overpowered handguns effectively.

Very true. But if you can carry and use a weapon too heavy for an ordinary person to wear and too bulky for an ordinary person to conceal, your mind ought to turn towards one of those H&K MP5s in 10mm Auto.