when is there HP damage for avoiding urination (Quick and Dirty Enchantment)

[jacobmuller]

Concentrate allows Step.
If you can go for a walk, are you really needing to Concentrate that deeply?
Perhaps a Q&D Concentration technique, hard, Will-3, limit Will...
Or
Mundane Concentration Perk: You can perform mundane tasks without breaking your concentration?

[Aldric]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Concentrate allows Step.
If you can go for a walk, are you really needing to Concentrate that deeply?
Perhaps a Q&D Concentration technique, hard, Will-3, limit Will...
Or
Mundane Concentration Perk: You can perform mundane tasks without breaking your concentration?

Or just invest those 50 points in CM, it's not wasted on a mage with high skills.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

For some reason, the fact that the FP is paid as a lump sum escaped me. I probably should have realized that if that wasn't the case, you could just get Regeneration instead. (That said, the power plant part isn't that hard if you have nuclear, and it's at least theoretically possible to make it work if you have several archmages.)

Yeah, but then we only have the real good stuff for arch-technomancers from TLs8+

The typical TL 3 fantasy tropes will NOT have even some of the most "trivial" enchantments, like armor with high DR or high extra damage or skill bonus (those can reach 10.000 energy or more, much much more).

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Concentrate allows Step.
If you can go for a walk, are you really needing to Concentrate that deeply?
Perhaps a Q&D Concentration technique, hard, Will-3, limit Will...
Or
Mundane Concentration Perk: You can perform mundane tasks without breaking your concentration?

I had ignored this thread but at 3 pages I was getting curious. This is exactly how I rule it though. Concentrate allows a Step and even Active Defense at a penalty so you should be able to snack, drink, and do minor simple tasks while Concentrating. Though I do think of Q&D as also like a Long Task and would probably combine the rules and see what I wound up with.

[KarlKost]

Does Q&A truly has to be a continuous process? Just Slow and Sure allows for breaks?

Because if that's the case, some items are truly pratically impossible... Energy and time wise. Slow and Sure would take forever for some 10k energy, and for Q&A it's impossible to accumulate that much energy without assistants - who by itself also makes it impossible due to the insane penalties.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Does Q&A truly has to be a continuous process? Just Slow and Sure allows for breaks?

Because if that's the case, some items are truly pratically impossible... Energy and time wise. Slow and Sure would take forever for some 10k energy, and for Q&A it's impossible to accumulate that much energy without assistants - who by itself also makes it impossible due to the insane penalties.

Well, I think you can have any number of assistants for S&S, so even thousands of energy can easily be done in a matter of months to a year if you just have a decent number of people working on it.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Concentrate allows Step.
If you can go for a walk, are you really needing to Concentrate that deeply?\

the weird thing is even All-Out Concentrate (psionic powers 11) gets a step, which seems odd

when Cole introduced All-Out Aim in pyramid 3/77 on target it has step:none and he changed AOA(ranged) to also have that, which 100% makes sense and IMO should be done for all-out concentrate as well.

It's worth noting for spellcasting purposes that I'm pretty sure starter mages can't use their Step though.

Skill 15-19 has the note "You are allowed to move one yard per second while taking the
Concentrate maneuver" implying skill 14 and less cannot - this is when "make a gesture" changes to "make a small gesture".

M10's alternate rules for M9 say "subtle foot motions like dance steps" are the default (omitted at -2 to skill if using AMR rules) so I figure that takes the place of your free step at skill 10-14.

At skill 9 and below it should probably be even more severe, like also taking the place of your retreat (like how a Leg Parry prevents a retreat)

Skill 3-9 is "both feet free" while 10-14 doesn't discuss feet at all, so maybe 1 foot free would be enough.

"1 yard per second" might apply to mages with move 10+ (who would have a 2-yard step) so even then they might still be restricted at skill 15-19.

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Perhaps a Q&D Concentration technique, hard, Will-3, limit Will...
Or
Mundane Concentration Perk: You can perform mundane tasks without breaking your concentration?

It raises the question of what is mundane though.

You can do things like parry a sword without automatically losing concentration (you just make the will roll we're talking about).

That would probably include parry techniques like 'grabbing parry' or 'escaping parry' from technical grappling.

If you can do that (parry and get a free attempt to initiate or degrade a grapple) then spending a parry to grapple a belt buckle or a toilet lid should probably be possible too.

I would say that takes the place of your "make a small gesture" ritual requirement of skill 15-19 though, making it mandatory you use "speak a word" instead, preventing silent ritual casting during that moment of bladder evacuation.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Concentrate allows a Step and even Active Defense at a penalty so you should be able to snack, drink, and do minor simple tasks while Concentrating.

Ultimately since you can't do anything constituting a 'ready' or 'attack' you would somehow need to make these "parry techniques" kinda like Interdiction at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=15 adapted in pyramid 3/61

Using the technique design rules at default is one of those murky issues though, like generally I think you need a perk to unlock unusual techniques which aren't listed in Martial Arts, so using designed-on-the-fly techniques when someone lacks point investment should suffer some kind of penalty beyond the default you'd get for having an Unusual Background which unlocks it.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Well, I think you can have any number of assistants for S&S, so even thousands of energy can easily be done in a matter of months to a year if you just have a decent number of people working on it.

So, this means that we need to establish a limit for Q&D then. For example, any Enchantment up to 800 energy is all good for Q&D, because that is the time limit for having no penalties. More than that it starts to get tricky. Maybe 12 hours is the upper most average that anyone will go at?

So, I'd say that items up to 800 energy could get normal costs (I mean, for buying them at the magic shop). From 800 to 1200 is a lot more expensive, because that is actually a heavy blow to the enchanters, so they'll charge more.

There's also the problem of energy. How comon is a fully charged 790 energy Powerstone? I'd say not at all. But really, what kind of powerstones do enchanters work with? I think 20 energy Powerstones might be comon. 50 energy Powerstones MAY BE standard on big organizations - like the Mages Guild of the capital. More than that is more like the prized private property of rich wizards.

We cant forget that Powerstones arent just a matter of capacity, but also RECHARGING. This means that, if your enchanting "Magicsmiths Lmtd" association uses 50 energy Powerstones, EACH MEMBER needs to have 50 powerstones of that level, so that they can work everyday, otherwise they would need to spend several days for them to recharge.

That means that, a group of 5 enchanters needs to have 250 Powerstones with 50 energy. That's not cheap - at all.

Now, 800 energy item - divided by 60 energy (50 Powerstone +10 FP/ER) gives 13.333 - or 13 assistants (plus the mage coordinating) required. That would give a -13 penalty, so it would require a skill of at least 28 with the spell for the minimum 15. Not feasible or realistic.

Lets assume that, realistically, most enchanters will need at least skill 18 on any spell - and yes, being an enchanter will require very professionalized knowledge.

This means an enchanter that cannot take more than 3 assistants.

So, we end up with 4 enchanters working togheter, for a maximum energy of 240 for Q&D.

Lone Enchanters with the lowest possible 15 skill can only make items at the most of 60 energy. So those will dominate the markets. Enchanters with 16 skill can have a single assistant for items with 120 energy, so those will also be fairly common - but will cost more - since 20% is the price of materials, the remaining 80% would be the wage of the mage, so 2 mages would cost 1.8 times the amount of energy used. Items up to 180 energy, althought still fairly common (requiring skill 17) will be a little less present, and will cost 2.6 times more than the energy cost would indicate for Q&D because it requires 3 mages. Up to 240 energy requires 4 mages, will cost 3.4 times more than what Q&D would suggest, and are uncommon items. 300 energy items will cost 4.2 times what Q&D suggests, will require 5 mages and will be very very rare items crafted by masters (20 skill only).

Anything more than that will be so rare to the point of not being commonly on sale - or having prices for S&S.

So, we can say that ANY magic items that require more than 300 energy will almost exclusively (except for one or 2 archmasters, and even then at the upper limit of 660 energy for a lvl 25 spell) be done with Slow and Sure, and prices can get astronomically high, up to the price of a kings ransom. And those most likely wont be avaiable on a shop, but rather will be custom tailored for special clients - and will undoubtly become prized family heirlooms.

So, here's my 2 cents: the hard limit for Q&D will be 300; even thou a few exceptional individuals and circumstances may go beyond that, those would be so rare that, even if there are a few individuals capable of going above that, they'll be so rare that they'll simply charge the same as S&S and pocket the massive difference - because it's not like the clients will have any choice.

[KarlKost]

It's worth noticing that my math above would be for a "typical" CAPITAL city - ie assuming a large Mage structure and organization.

On medium sized cities, it's most likely that Enchanters would work just with 20 energy Powerstones, in which case the costs would be: up to 30 energy, normal; 30-60 1.8 for 2 mages; 60-90 2.6 for 3 mages; 90-120 3.4 for 4 mages and finally 120-150 for 4.2 times the prices suggested for Q&D for 5 mages and the up most you can find in the town - with any item above 150 energy being made exclusively by S&S.

On the other hand, a massive sprawling empire (think Rome or China) with a massive and filthy rich Empirial City with a multi-billion Mages Guild could have Enchanters that use 100 points Powerstones. Since you need 100 of those for each Enchanter for having one fully charged every single day, and with an average price of those being 100k each (according to the prices on Gurps Magic), that means that the Mages Guild must disponibilize 10 MILLIONS of money in Powerstones for EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Enchanters that they employ - so expect such a guild to be filthy rich (billions upon billions - every 100 Enchanters require 1 billion of worth in Powerstones), powerful, organized and with VERY loyal and united members. And probably those Enchanters will pay a fee to the Guild, in exchange of such items they would never have access on their own, so prices could be a little higher, but that probably would be offset due to the higher economic level of such a city compared to the rest of the world.

In such an Empirial Capital, items up to 110 energy will flood the markets. Up to 220 energy will be fairly comon items (1.8 times normal cost for Q&A, 2 mages, enchanting leader skill 16), from 220-330 energy it will be 2.6x cost, 3 mages, skill 17, 330-440 is 3.4x cost, 4 mages, skill 18 and finally 440-550 energy is 4.2x cost, 5 mages, skill 19.

In such massive city, skill 20 masters become possible - althought there will probably NOT have a master for EVERY possible enchantment, but still it is possible to find items with energy between 550-660 at 5 times the suggested cost for Q&D produced by 6 Mages coordinated by a Master with skill 20 - and those will be extremely rare.

Anything that requires more than that will only ever come from S&S and will NEVER be on the markets, being just tailor made for special clients by the price of a castle, and will be the kinds of items to become the symbols of entire noble families for generations.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

So, here's my 2 cents: the hard limit for Q&D will be 300; even thou a few exceptional individuals and circumstances may go beyond that, those would be so rare that, even if there are a few individuals capable of going above that, they'll be so rare that they'll simply charge the same as S&S and pocket the massive difference - because it's not like the clients will have any choice.

The practical limit for Q&D with powerstones is about 100 per enchanter (using 90 point stones cast on cheap materials) -- a 90 point stone costs around $27k for one college, $44k for general, and allows 4 enchantments per year (worth $13,200 per mage; that's quite fast payoff, but there are other costs associated with maintaining such a circle).

Using non-cheap powerstones is nonsensical (more than ten times as expensive). There are tricks involving paut that significantly alter this, but unless you're allowing paut talismans it's generally not worthwhile.