Fright Checks and Stress and Derangement for pets and wild animals

[Plane]

I initially assumed animals might have low Will because of their low IQ (I only remembered Per being higher) but B455-458 actually assigns pretty decent (10+) Will scores which would make them resist the Campaigns "Fright Check" rules as well as the Stress/Derangement rules introduced in Horror.

One thing I was wondering about though, is are there special defenses animals might have against gaining mental disadvantages compared to humans of the same Will?

I was thinking along the lines of: maybe there are ways that human IQ being higher is a disadvantage?

Like for example we can conceive threats like nuclear bombs and become paranoid about them, whereas animals have no idea stuff like that exists so it can't unsettle them.

Wild animals tend to live in more dangerous environments (ie something can come along and eat you) compared to domesticated ones (or humans) yet the dangers they deal with seem to be ones they think they can manage/prevent to some degree of competency, whereas humans I think are able to conceive massive dangers they don't think they're able to prevent.

Something like "there are snipers who can kill from a mile away" is a human fear... missiles and timed explosives, etc. I don't think animals can have paranoia like this: there's fewer things to break their minds.

I think some of this might be related to Tech Level (ie you can conceive the technology exists) plus also your awareness of the world. Like if you know monsters/magic exist, yeah you're more capable of dealing with those threats, but you also have more dangers that you are aware of.

I'm curious if maybe this manifests in "humans make more fright checks because they perceive more dangers" ? The more fright checks you make, the more you can fail, which even if you get minimal results like stun can accrue -1 stress that builds up.

Stress sheds at 1 per 10 min relaxation (similar to FP recovery) but I wonder how often that comes, and how a rapid spat of fright checks (combined with stuff like insomnia which would penalize will rolls) could whittle someone down.

animals with their high Per will often notice things happening, but due to their low IQ will not necessarily process the importance of what is happening. An animal who has never seen a gun will not be afraid of it (they don't understand it, it is a branch) whereas a human who sees it might roll a fright check.

[talonthehand]

Things like Fear of Nuclear Attacks would just be a taboo trait for things not capable of thinking of them - you don't need anything more than that.

While humans can perceive real or imagined threats that animals can't, the samples given would be just as alien to, for instance, ancient Greeks who have the same IQ as modern humans. It's just outside their frame of reference.

[sir_pudding]

Combat Reflexes is very common in wild animals.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by talonthehand

While humans can perceive real or imagined threats that animals can't, the samples given would be just as alien to, for instance, ancient Greeks who have the same IQ as modern humans. It's just outside their frame of reference.

Yeah that's why I'm thinking susceptibility to fright checks for some things wouldn't just be raw IQ, but more of a skill check.

B22 says "fundamental differences in thinking prevent you from learning IQ-based technological skills" but I'm wondering if maybe we should go a step further and say it prevents USING them too (ie no defaults) instead of just preventing buying/learning (spending points)

B194's Explosives skills for example all default to IQ-5 but I can't really imagine low-TL characters getting to attempt Demolition or EOD or building Fireworks (much less NOD or UD) at such a default.

I think this sort of gets covered under the B168 table though. Even if you in theory have an IQ-5 default, you could at best make attempts with TL three levels higher (at -15 to skill)

Maybe the -5/-10/-15/impossible penaltes could be applied not just for using higher TL stuff but also for conceiving it or reacting fearfully to it too?

B27's "Stone Age" is the best most animals could aspire to, so Nuclear Age being TL7 is probably something only someone from TL4 (age of sail)+ could conceive. If you were "Medieval" (TL3) you shouldn't be able to accept the existence of nuclear bombs, basically.

Once you actually grow to accept "nukes are real" (and not just some superstition) that could represent actually buying your TL up. Rather than 5/level I could see maybe some kind of limited version of TL buyup where it might be something like -80% if the TL only applied to a single skill instead of all of them.

The problem I have with the medieval thing though is you should in theory have some knight/squire who can accept stuff like "there exists powerful mages who can turn entire castle-cities to dust" so it seems like they should be able to conceive a nuclear bomb in that respect.

What if we had something like "Magic Level" advantages similar to tech advantages where people could conceive different levels of magical power being possible?

If that were the case, someone with ML7 (realizes nuke-level magic is possible) might be able to conceive TL7 outcomes too, via some kind of carryover?

[sir_pudding]

Yes nonsapients typically don't get to default technological skills.

[The Colonel]

On the other hand, you get problems based on the inability to understand abstract concepts - that's why you have to separation train your dog so that he learns that you will come back once you disappear, or that he won't be shut in this room forever. Actually, you have to do the same with your children - it's just not as obvious that you are doing it to most people.

Originally Posted by Plane

B27's "Stone Age" is the best most animals could aspire to, so Nuclear Age being TL7 is probably something only someone from TL4 (age of sail)+ could conceive. If you were "Medieval" (TL3) you shouldn't be able to accept the existence of nuclear bombs, basically.

Once you actually grow to accept "nukes are real" (and not just some superstition) that could represent actually buying your TL up. Rather than 5/level I could see maybe some kind of limited version of TL buyup where it might be something like -80% if the TL only applied to a single skill instead of all of them.

The problem I have with the medieval thing though is you should in theory have some knight/squire who can accept stuff like "there exists powerful mages who can turn entire castle-cities to dust" so it seems like they should be able to conceive a nuclear bomb in that respect.

I would suggest that once you've seen a bomb of any kind, and understood that they can be scaled, it's not that big a jump to "one big enough to destroy a city" - you may not, by default, think such a thing can be done, but once you have the concept in mind and someone tells you that such a thing exists, it's just a matter of whether or not you believe them. You may imagine a powerful conventional explosive rather than a fission/fusion device, but the idea shouldn't be completely alien. Before you've seen a bomb, then you're going to struggle to figure out how any weapon could effect multiple targets...

[Plane]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I would suggest that once you've seen a bomb of any kind, and understood that they can be scaled, it's not that big a jump to "one big enough to destroy a city" - you may not, by default, think such a thing can be done, but once you have the concept in mind and someone tells you that such a thing exists, it's just a matter of whether or not you believe them. You may imagine a powerful conventional explosive rather than a fission/fusion device, but the idea shouldn't be completely alien. Before you've seen a bomb, then you're going to struggle to figure out how any weapon could effect multiple targets...

Being able to conceive a small bomb might still leave you skeptical about large ones, just like Im' sure the first cannon/blunderbuss users might be skeptical if you suggested improving to our current capacities.

Like instead of thinking in nuke terms (small package big boom) you might assume a bomb big enough to level the city would need to be the size of an elephant instead of a horse.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Plane

One thing I was wondering about though, is are there special defenses animals might have against gaining mental disadvantages compared to humans of the same Will?

Robert Sapolsky addresses exactly this question in his book, "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" and other works.

Animals have a great ability to "turn off" their stress responses once they're out of immediate danger. The trade-off is that they will instinctively react with fear or rage when the same threat reappears, even in harmless form.

For example, I've got a cat who was obviously abused in his former life as a barn cat. Any time I put on rubber work boots he freaks out even if my behavior doesn't change.

Historically, horses and mules exposed to battlefield conditions developed PTSD and became "gunshy" unless they were carefully conditioned to accept loud noises, blood, etc. as "normal."

In GURPS terms, animal Fright Checks might be modified by only making them make Fright Checks for things they understand (potential predators, obvious environmental threats), but turning any failed Fright Check into some form of PTSD, usually a Phobia which just gets worse with repeated exposure. Even worse, the animal will "spook" when it senses anything faintly reminiscent of the original stress trigger or location using any of its senses.

For example, a horse rescued from a burning barn might go beyond normal animal pyrophobia and become completely unmanageable when he smells any sort of smoke.

Also consider that animals might get phobic about things that a human would take in stride. For example, any quick motion or flash of light has the potential to spook an animal, as will exposure to things they instinctively dislike, such as loud noises, fire, or the smell of rivals or predators.

That said, if an animal is constantly exposed to stress they can't escape from they will eventually collapse mentally and physically, showing symptoms similar to severe depression. The best known example is learned helplessness in dogs. In those cases, the animal might acquire any sort of disadvantage, mostly Bad Temper, Berserk, Intolerance (Certain Types of People), Chronic Pain (from ulcers), or Compulsive Behavior.

[Plane]

regarding the permanent pyrophobia of a horse maybe that's because you can't use psychology to treat them like with humans you want to re-acclimate to fire?

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Plane

Being able to conceive a small bomb might still leave you skeptical about large ones, just like Im' sure the first cannon/blunderbuss users might be skeptical if you suggested improving to our current capacities.

Like instead of thinking in nuke terms (small package big boom) you might assume a bomb big enough to level the city would need to be the size of an elephant instead of a horse.

True - although if you needed to explain a modern assault rifle to an hand cannon user, you would at least have terms to work in: "like a handgonne, but can fire once every heartbeat or so - and can actually hit things you aim it at". It might seem implausible, and indeed provoke skepticism, but it might not be a completely alien concept.