Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2021, 02:38 PM   #11
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
What happens to a DFRPG lich when reduced to -10xHP? Unless they come back extremely quickly (or literally cannot be stopped without an NMZ), I don't think you'd actually need to outright destroy one to get past it - destroy its body, move on before it grows another one. If the GM decides it holds a grudge against you and decides to come after you... well, that's an arc villain. If they have something more akin to Unkillable 2 than Unkillable 3, of course, you've just got to "kill" them, then carry their remains to an NMZ (hacking at them every so often to prevent regeneration) and unceremoniously dump them there. And yeah, a lich would need a really good reason to be near an NMZ, but that should be doable (maybe the MacGuffin it's searching for is in the area, or even within the NMZ and the lich wants to be close by as soon as its servants retrieve it).
Even that may not be enough. LIches by their very nature (or at least the D&D version) have Unkillable 3 as their souls are actually in a phylactery. If the lich is using the "Blueprint for a Lich" (Dragon #26, June, 1979) playbook than they will have a well preserved dead body within 90 feet of the phylactery as a back up.

Put the current body into a NMZ and the connection between soul and body is severed and the soul just hops from the phylactery to the waiting corpse. Worst yet D&D liches will teleport to their phylactery before getting to the point where they will be unable to do so.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2021, 04:35 PM   #12
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Even that may not be enough.
It is for the version written up in DFRPG; it has unkillable 3 with an achilles heel.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2021, 04:51 PM   #13
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Even that may not be enough. LIches by their very nature (or at least the D&D version) have Unkillable 3 as their souls are actually in a phylactery. If the lich is using the "Blueprint for a Lich" (Dragon #26, June, 1979) playbook than they will have a well preserved dead body within 90 feet of the phylactery as a back up.

Put the current body into a NMZ and the connection between soul and body is severed and the soul just hops from the phylactery to the waiting corpse. Worst yet D&D liches will teleport to their phylactery before getting to the point where they will be unable to do so.
While I don't have the relevant DFRPG book to check their stats there, I did check the stats for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy liches (from Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1). Those do indeed have Unkillable 3, but no mention of a phylactery, and no traits that improve their healing rate (indeed, they actually don't heal at all while corporeal). So, if you encounter one randomly, you could indeed just beat it down to -10xHP, ideally with Crushing weapons (which deal double damage, and readily shatter limbs... although liches generally don't need those to cast spells). That's by no means easy, particularly considering that, while they don't have much HP (only 10), they've got a lot of spells at high skill levels, a large ER to draw on, and typically have an army of undead supporting them (their description mentions them being able to body hop to said undead if their body is destroyed, but they don't seem to have any trait that would allow this, nor are any rules given for when and how this happens). But considering any lich who's body you do destroy isn't going to be around for a few months (with HT 14, it should take the lich a bit under 120 days to recover the 110 HP of Injury it took to destroy it), unless it's a particularly large dungeon (or the GM opts to turn the lich into an arc villain, as I mentioned upthread), destroying it once is probably enough to avoid ever needing to deal with it again.

Then again, the lich also lacks any traits that would allow it to avoid consciousness checks below HP 0. So, drop it below 0, wait for it to pass out (with HT 14, that would take on average around 11 seconds to happen - but dropping its HP further worsens the roll, so you could drop it to -4xHP and it will likely fail within 2 seconds), and now you've got an unconscious lich on your hands. Normally, said lich would get a chance to awaken each hour, but if you got it below -1xHP (or just beat on it some more once it's unconscious - might as well break off all its arms and legs), it gets a single chance at 12 hours to wake up, or it never will until either some necromancer comes along to fix it up or it gets destroyed. Again, with HT 14 it's got a pretty good chance of waking up, but then you just bash its skull against the ground and it'll pass out for another 12 hours (with another chance to get trapped in a coma) in short order (at least until you manage to damage it enough that it's destroyed). That should make it possible to transport it to the nearest NMZ for disposal. I suspect the authors of DFM1 didn't really intend for this to be a legitimate means of permanently destroying the lich, however (indeed, I think most authors who give a monster Unkillable expect it to keep fighting until it reaches -10xHP, not pass out halfway there).
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2021, 11:23 PM   #14
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Then again, the lich also lacks any traits that would allow it to avoid consciousness checks below HP 0. So, drop it below 0, wait for it to pass out (with HT 14, that would take on average around 11 seconds to happen - but dropping its HP further worsens the roll, so you could drop it to -4xHP and it will likely fail within 2 seconds), and now you've got an unconscious lich on your hands.
I doubt it is going to be that easy. If the lich suspects it is in danger of passing out it will use any appropriate spells to get out of the situation.

Interestingly the Fantasy Lich does not have Unkillable which is...weird.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2021, 03:35 AM   #15
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I doubt it is going to be that easy. If the lich suspects it is in danger of passing out it will use any appropriate spells to get out of the situation.
Provided it can cast them quickly enough, yes. While I said "wait for it to pass out," what's more likely is that you'd continue to press the attack - not only does this make it difficult for the lich to continue casting spells (at least those with duration over a second, although once you've removed its arms and legs you could probably do Wait: Attack as soon as it starts casting a spell*), but every multiple of HP you drop it makes it more likely that it will pass out. Then again, with Will 18, the lich has a pretty good chance of just ignoring any such distraction (rolling against 15); Stunning will let you bypass that high Will, and it's not too difficult for many DF characters to deal a Major Wound to a lich (5 cr, 6 cut, or 8 burn/imp will do it), but with HT 14 and no hit locations to penalize this, it can't be relied upon either.

Of course, if the lich is losing and retreats... no more lich. Again, the GM could turn it into a vengeful arc villain, but unless the PC's opt to pursue it, a lich that was driven to retreat is going to be best served just cutting its losses and giving the party a wide berth (also, it may well take quite some time for it to heal itself, if it even can given the penalty to Healing spells cast on oneself while injured). Note here we're talking about a random encounter with a lich, where the lack of NMZ's is the most problematic (for a major villain, part of the "destroy the lich" quest is figuring out a way to actually get the lich to an NMZ, or finding some other way of bypassing their Unkillable 3).

*With most (or all) of its spells at Skill 20 or higher, it doesn't need to gesture or speak to cast a spell, just concentrate. I'm not sure someone watching would be able to even realize the lich were casting a spell, at least in time to disrupt it. But if they can, that above Wait should work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Interestingly the Fantasy Lich does not have Unkillable which is...weird.
It may be the idea there is immortality in the sense of not dying from old age, rather than being unable to be killed. It's odd if the template doesn't even have Unkillable 1 - I think most GURPS undead either have at least that (you've got to destroy them outright for them to stay dead) or Fragile: Unnatural.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2021, 04:12 AM   #16
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
It may be the idea there is immortality in the sense of not dying from old age, rather than being unable to be killed. It's odd if the template doesn't even have Unkillable 1 - I think most GURPS undead either have at least that (you've got to destroy them outright for them to stay dead) or Fragile: Unnatural.
More Fragile (Unnatural) than Unkillable 1. I'd have to check but I can't think of anything that actually has Unkillable 1. It's usually 2 or 3.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2021, 05:14 AM   #17
Taneli
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

It might make sense to tie the mana level roll to an existing thing, like the Reaction Table.

For instance:

0 or less: No mana
1 to 3: Very low mana (see Thaumatology)
4 to 6: Low mana
7 to 9: Normal mana with some negative aspected mana (see Thaumatology)
8 to 12: Normal mana
13 to 15: Normal mana with some positively aspected mana
16 to 18: High mana
19 or better: Very high mana

And then a wider region could have a positive or negative reputation for having high or low mana (such as Caithness in Banestorm for low mana and the desert for no mana), and rolling there would add a positive or negative modifier to the roll depending on the reputation.

Note: all mana levels (with the exception of no mana, I guess) can have positive or negative aspected mana too. Didn't add those to other than the normal mana to create differentation.
__________________
[/delurk]
AotA is of course IMHO, YMMV.
vincit qui se vincit
Taneli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2021, 10:08 AM   #18
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

The more I think about this, the more it feels like Suspend Mana and Drain Mana are absolutely essential to wizardly magic working as intended. One interesting thing about these spells is that Drain Mana in particular is vastly cheaper than most other methods if you want lasting protection for an area (the one partial exception I see is Pentagram, and because its cost scales with area rather than radius, it's really only cheaper if you're protecting a single hex). In a world where wizardly magic is the only type, I expect small areas that have been subject to Drain Mana would be extremely common and serve a variety of purposes: jail cells, "safe rooms", or simply places where people can talk with a guarantee they won't be scried upon. Dungeon Fantasy complicates things because Drain Mana will only protect you against one of several types of hostile magic, but the spell might at least be popular among clerics who want to maximize their "home field advantage" in their temples, or at least certain sections thereof.
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2021, 12:32 PM   #19
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taneli View Post
It might make sense to tie the mana level roll to an existing thing, like the Reaction Table.

For instance:

0 or less: No mana
1 to 3: Very low mana (see Thaumatology)
4 to 6: Low mana
7 to 9: Normal mana with some negative aspected mana (see Thaumatology)
8 to 12: Normal mana
13 to 15: Normal mana with some positively aspected mana
16 to 18: High mana
19 or better: Very high mana

And then a wider region could have a positive or negative reputation for having high or low mana (such as Caithness in Banestorm for low mana and the desert for no mana), and rolling there would add a positive or negative modifier to the roll depending on the reputation.

Note: all mana levels (with the exception of no mana, I guess) can have positive or negative aspected mana too. Didn't add those to other than the normal mana to create differentation.
There is also Wild Mana which depending on the setting either is a form of aspected mana or a level of mana above Very High. - Thaumatology p 59.

From what the DMG1 said D&D worlds are clearly akin to Wild Mana thanks to the connections to the various planes:

"All magic and cleric spells are similar in that the word sounds, when combined into whatever patterns are applicable, are charged with energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. (...) The triggering action draws power from some plane of the multiverse" DMG1 pg 40

Then there Pure Mana (also called Raw Magic) where one option is it five times more efficient than normal mana. - Thaumatology p 227
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2021, 12:35 AM   #20
Taneli
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Default Re: [DF] Placing areas of different mana in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
There is also Wild Mana which depending on the setting either is a form of aspected mana or a level of mana above Very High. - Thaumatology p 59.

From what the DMG1 said D&D worlds are clearly akin to Wild Mana thanks to the connections to the various planes:

"All magic and cleric spells are similar in that the word sounds, when combined into whatever patterns are applicable, are charged with energy from the Positive or Negative Material Plane. (...) The triggering action draws power from some plane of the multiverse" DMG1 pg 40

Then there Pure Mana (also called Raw Magic) where one option is it five times more efficient than normal mana. - Thaumatology p 227
I left wild mana out as it's complicated.

Raw Magic is more like itemized energy reserve that can be collected from nature and stored in yourself if you have the requisite advantage, also a bit different.

Then there's also Toxic mana, which I've left out as well from the example.
__________________
[/delurk]
AotA is of course IMHO, YMMV.
vincit qui se vincit
Taneli is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dungeon fantasy

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.