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Old 09-29-2020, 09:58 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default sleep+150 v unconciousness+200

B429 describes the +200:
knocked out, just as if you had suffered injury
B36 description of the Incapacitation enhancements for Affliction says to check the B428 section for game effects but I don't see it for the +150 of sleep.

I think the +50% difference might be whether to use B423 to recover from unconsciouness (eg automatic in 15m with 1+ HP, or hourly HT rolls below) or whatever rules we use to wake people up?

B427 describes "sleeping until awakened or you get a full night's sleep". B155 has "Slow Riser" penalties for >60m sleeps (unclear if this applies to being unconscious too)

B162 explains how Dai Blackthorn's Perception and Danger Sense comes with Light Sleeper (B142) which are the only rules I know for waking up... beyond the HT roll(s) to fall asleep it's failing a sense roll to sleep through combat going on around you (going to assume that's Hearing since eyes are presumably closed so not Sight)

B311 gives Dai a Per of 15 so it would be pretty hard to fail that roll unless he put on earmuffs or something along those lines. I'm not sure if that would be enough as B47 would also give a separate Per roll independent of hearing due to his mental advantage (weird how that's not exotic so you don't need to explain an Origin/Source, in his case it's ESP/psi though) but I think earmuffs would still be useful since it could help you fail your hearing roll so that as long as your Danger Sense doesn't kick in you have a good chance of staying asleep.

For those who do not have Light Sleeper there's no mention of a Per roll to avoid waking though. Should there maybe be something like that at a penalty, as most people are more able to sleep through ,but people do still wake to light noises even if not light sleepers?

In either case, whatever the condition for waking is, I don't know how that works in respect to B34. Does this apply during the initial MoS minutes, or after? Is it in addition to the HT roll per second to get out of physical stun, or replacing it? The physical stun and HT roll is only for Incapacitation enhancements, not Irritation ones.

One other missing thing I'm noticing is that B428's "Drowsy" does not appear to have a price listed as an enhancement. This is merely an Irritating condition and is listed after Cough and before Drunk, but B36 does not list it anywhere. Is it off limits or does it's price get added later? This seems like a good precursor to 'sleep' as a secondary (MoF 5+) condition.
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Old 09-29-2020, 10:29 AM   #2
ravenfish
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: sleep+150 v unconciousness+200

I have always assumed that an Unconsciousness affliction doesn't use the rules for recovering after collapsing at negative HP, but rather lasts for the stated minutes equal to margin of failure, modified by Extended Duration (the rules on p.423 are specifically for injury-derived unconsciousness, and, anyway, most of the exotic or supernatural abilities that Affliction will be modeling should be capable of keeping an uninjured man unconscious for more than fifteen minutes). Similarly, I have always treated Sleep afflictions as lasting the given duration (or until awakened- probably easy enough to do with a ready action if you don't worry about the subject minding being shaken awake-, hence the 50% discount compared to unconsciousness) without regard to normal sleep cycle.
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Old 09-29-2020, 10:50 AM   #3
ericthered
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Default Re: sleep+150 v unconciousness+200

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
I have always assumed that an Unconsciousness affliction doesn't use the rules for recovering after collapsing at negative HP, but rather lasts for the stated minutes equal to margin of failure, modified by Extended Duration (the rules on p.423 are specifically for injury-derived unconsciousness, and, anyway, most of the exotic or supernatural abilities that Affliction will be modeling should be capable of keeping an uninjured man unconscious for more than fifteen minutes). Similarly, I have always treated Sleep afflictions as lasting the given duration (or until awakened- probably easy enough to do with a ready action if you don't worry about the subject minding being shaken awake-, hence the 50% discount compared to unconsciousness) without regard to normal sleep cycle.

I agree with this: Unconsciousness can't be recovered from by actions, while sleeper can be shaken awake. I've always just assumed that's the case.



Which may mean that a sleeping beauty curse is NOT sleep with permanent on it.
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: sleep+150 v unconciousness+200

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
I have always treated Sleep afflictions as lasting the given duration (or until awakened- probably easy enough to do with a ready action if you don't worry about the subject minding being shaken awake
Kind of prefer the idea of using attack maneuvers here, it might be harder for a hobbit to shake a dragon awake.

This way we could either use Basic Set's Shove (double knockback, if your striking ST is enough to do a multiple of their ST or HP) to try and wake them up without injury.

I don't know if "I got relocated 1 yard to the next hex" is necessarily an automatic wakeup, but it should probably give a pretty good chance for it happening.

For thresholds prior to 1 yard knockback (sometimes getting ST-2 on a ST20 dragon can be tricky) maybe we could still have some rules for "I felt that" as even if you can't roll someone a yard, perhaps you still nudged them enough to perceive it.

That perception has got to be muffled a bit while asleep (there are some sensations you can feel when awake but if you do feel them while asleep, it might just nudge you a bit towards consciousness without fully waking you) but still have some potential...

We can't use shock directly (1 HP won't even do that on an HP creature, and shoves don't inflict injury anyway... plus it would make you unable to wake those who don't suffe rshock like with HPT) but maybe it could serve as some kind of rough guideline here of how perceptible "basic damage" (shoves still inflict that) is to creatures.

Blunt Force Trauma if we applied it as a blanket 20% allowing fractional (0.2hp per 1 crushing dmg, not just 1hp per 5hp DR stops) could be useful.

Like maybe you roll Perception at +1 per 1/100 HP of injury to perceive injury? This would give you per+2 to sense 0.2 HP lost to blunt force trauma from 1 crushing damage stopped by flexible DR or the basic damage rolled by a shove, as one example.

Rigid DR doesn't seem like it should convey a sense of touch, since it's a hard carapace, unless it actually knocks you back... but "below-threshold" knockback still seems like it ought to be perceptible.

What if rigid DR wasn't immune to BFT but just applied BFT so it was negligible? IE instead of suffering 20% injury from what DR stops, rigid (default) DR instead suffers 4% injury?

If we defined DR as a physical structure (think a turtle's shell) then if applying x1/5 x1/5 (1/25 = 4%) BFT directly to HP of those with DR is too extreme, you could instead apply it to whatever HP you define it as having (think "Damage to Armor" per Low-Tech)

High HP would have the advantage of being hard to cripple (1/3 HP = 1/2 DR) and being hard to knock back, but the disadvantage of inflicting higher knockback damage from collision with it's wearer should damage be sufficient enough to do so, and also count as encumbrance.
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