Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

[JulianLW]

Look at this exchange on the forum from 2007 about DR being switchable.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

By default, DR is always on - you don't have to spend an action to activate it, it's just there. This also means it's always visible - since it's not explicitly described as hard to notice, it's always obvious that you have DR. If you want to make it so that your DR can be "turned off" - that is, you won't have the DR, but it also won't be obvious that you have the advantage, apply the Switchable enhancement, from Powers. If you want the DR to be on all the time, but not obvious, add the Low or No Signature enhancement.

Five minutes later, the next comment in the thread, Kromm responds - and it's very clearly a response to Kelly Pedersen's post, since he addresses all the issues Pedersen just raised:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Damage Resistance is normally "always on," per the first paragraph of Turning Advantages Off and On (p. B34). It has no crippling bulk or appearance issues by default, so "it never inconveniences you."

There's little value to being able to switch DR on and off. You must still add Switchable, +10% if you wish to do that, though. Presumably, if you want such a feature, you have ways of making it useful. You can balance that cost with Nuisance Effect and so on to get DR at +0% that's funny-looking or bulky when on, out of the way when off. This isn't a net drawback, because once again, it has its uses. If nothing else, it's really annoying to have to subtract DR from the HT rolls for beneficial Afflictions, or to turn aside hypodermics when you need to be immunized against plagues!

Finally, you can take limitations that shut down or reduce the availability of your DR. These are most often such things as Accessibility and Uncontrollable. If you have a drawback like that, then you don't need Switchable as well.

In case there's any question, Kromm says "[DR] has no crippling bulk or appearance issues by default, so 'it never inconveniences you.' There's little value to being able to switch DR on and off."

In other words, Kromm is explicitly denying the inconvenience of visibility that Pedersen had proposed the switchable solution for. I don't know how this could be any more unambiguous. The "No Signature" enhancement on DR in Monster Hunters is for a mystical force field - Armor of Faith - the description for which explicitly states: "This is not obvious – the attacks just seem to do less damage than they should."

The other place in Monster Hunters where DR has a "No Signature" modifier is for Demonspawn, and there, too, the description says "this allows you to blend into humanity."

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Monster Hunters, DR with the Tough Skin limitation (and without "No Signature") appears on a number of templates - with no indication that "you have skin like a crocodile," or whatever.

I don't know where you're getting the Sorcery effects on DR. I can't find any mention in Thaumatology: Sorcery about DR with Visible.

Again, this is two places in ALL of the GURPS stuff, apparently, that have the words "No Signature" associated with DR - and in BOTH places, the fluff text clearly mentions supernatural effects that are remarkably (that is, it's remarked upon in the text) unnoticeable. I don't think that's enough to make Kromm's very clear ruling on the matter irrelevant.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

In case there's any question, Kromm says "[DR] has no crippling bulk or appearance issues by default, so 'it never inconveniences you.' There's little value to being able to switch DR on and off."

In other words, Kromm is explicitly denying the inconvenience of visibility that Pedersen had proposed the switchable solution for.

As was discussed in the prior thread, that wording is hardly so cut and dried. Frankly, "has no ... appearance issues" would be a really weird way to say "is not visible". It seems far more likely that Kromm is pointing out that DR does not give reaction penalties, count as Distinctive Features, prevent you fitting through narrow spaces, etc.

(And, like many posters in this very discussion have done, glossing past the question of whether people looking at you can perceive it.)

[awesomenessofme1]

I was operating off of memory from the other thread. It was in Sorcery - Protection and Warning Spells.

Worth noting that Monster Hunters also includes Low Signature on DR, where it's described as making said DR "much tougher than it looks", only being detectable by touch and a Per-4 roll. The implication in MH is that unmodified DR is clearly visible.

[JulianLW]

It would be a weird way to say that if he weren't responding directly to the suggestion Pedersen had made 5 minutes earlier. Pedersen says DR is visible, so you should either get Switchable or Low or No Signature. Kromm says, it has "no appearance issues" and switchable has is pointless for this purpose. You could, he says, invent a nuisance effect to DR as a limitation, though, that would make switchable worthwhile.

Why don't you go back and read that thread from 2007? Again, I really don't think this could be a more unambiguous ruling. Suggesting that Kromm isn't telling Pederson that DR isn't visible but is instead saying (again without clearly mentioning it - and in doing so raising a totally new issue without clearly identifying it - all very un-Kromm-like) that it has no reaction modifiers?! This seems as though you're really looking for a way to misread the exchange.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Now I realize that campaign style and the specifics of the setting most definitely matter. I still think RAW, whatever it is, is also confusing. XP I also think that, by default, DR by default should have some visible indicator (maybe to other senses as well).

The way to detect DR is to hit the thing that has it. Just having laser eyes isn't obvious. You have to use them.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Worth noting that Monster Hunters also includes Low Signature on DR, where it's described as making said DR "much tougher than it looks", only being detectable by touch and a Per-4 roll. The implication in MH is that unmodified DR is clearly visible.

This is interesting, but again, the ability in question has the "Bioenhancement" Power Modifier. The fluff text for that says that these "physical and mental capabilities, [are] made possible via 'wet nanotech' treatments, upgraded organs, etc. Its abilities are feats that, while theoretically possible, are beyond the capacity of normal human beings." Then the limitations that form the power modifier explicitly call out the detectability of the Bionenhancement abilities as limitations: first, the Unusual Biochemistry limitation, then, "Enemies with scientific minds can learn much about you if they can get a copy of your file – that is, the data on the experiments that produced you, including the abilities you were given." So this suggests that concealment of Bioenhancement abilities is clearly related to the PM, since the baddies can deduce your powers from a file and then use "Chemistry or Pharmacy to produce targeted pathogens and drugs that can be used to hamper, overload, or neutralize your abilities." This case seems clearly to be a case of "Low Signature" on a Robocop-style augmentation - which has, as Kromm pointed out in that post - a couple of limitations added in the form of the Power Modifier - much like the Nuisance Effect he mentioned.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The way to detect DR is to hit the thing that has it. Just having laser eyes isn't obvious. You have to use them.

Yes. Exactly.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Why don't you go back and read that thread from 2007?

I did. The more I read the quote, the less sense it makes, even in context... which suggests it is being used wrong in this discussion, that I don't understand what it is saying (even in context), or both.

Where do you draw the line between something "inconveniencing" you and something simply not providing additional advantage?

Some Physical Advantages, by default are:

• Obviously visible
• Imperceptible
• Visible, but not obviously so

so just listing examples doesn't prove this one way or the other. I can point out that having Extra Arms are going to be completely Visible by default, meaning one can't take that as a Limitation.

We also need to be careful to avoid confusing apples with oranges

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The way to detect DR is to hit the thing that has it. Just having laser eyes isn't obvious. You have to use them.

The first sentence may be true, but that's because it is part of what we're trying to work out? Laser eyes aren't an Advantage in 4e, they're an ability, aren't they? Something you build out of other traits. They're also not something we can reality check... well, unless I missed some recent real-world revelations.

What I do know is that I have at least some working knowledge of how much damage something can take in the real world, and by sight alone. I may only have vague notion like "This can probably take a hit without breaking." but I do have that vague notion. I won't always get it right, whether because I was mistaken or because the things looks are misleading, but that doesn't equate to DR being imperceptible by default.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

The first sentence may be true, but that's because it is part of what we're trying to work out? Laser eyes aren't an Advantage in 4e, they're an ability, aren't they?

Laser Eyes are a specific example of Innate Attack.

Something you build out of other traits.

They're just Innate Attack. And Innate Attack is only detectable when it's being used unless it has some limitations on it like Gadget.

I may only have vague notion like "This can probably take a hit without breaking." but I do have that vague notion. I won't always get it right, whether because I was mistaken or because the things looks are misleading, but that doesn't equate to DR being imperceptible by default.

To me this question isn't an issue of reality checking because a question of character points. Is it really a handicap to be visibly protected from damage, and what's more a bigger handicap the more invulnerable you are? And given that significant amounts of non-gear-based DR are the sphere of superhumans what would be the impact on the setting of making every character with significant DR an obvious rock monster or robot?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

To me this question isn't an issue of reality checking because a question of character points. Is it really a handicap to be visibly protected from damage, and what's more a bigger handicap the more invulnerable you are? And given that significant amounts of non-gear-based DR are the sphere of superhumans what would be the impact on the setting of making every character with significant DR an obvious rock monster or robot?

That last question doesn't really fit. Making supers with invisible DR pay for the privilege is, to borrow your words, "a question of character points". Nobody says you can't build Clark Kent's bulletproof skin. The question is whether that's worth more points on Clark Kent than it is on a 10-storey battle robot or a guy who looks like a rock troll. Which has no impact on the setting, because character points are not in-setting phenomena.