Riding combat

[JohnPaulB]

EDIT: This is being transferred to House Rules section.

I have questioned the horse's momentum and the rules of engagement for it.

IT p 130 says Riding animals follow the same rules for engagement and disengagement as do foot warriors, with one exception: If a horse (normally a 2-hex creature) moves more than 8 hexes in a single turn and then engages a single man on foot, treat the horse as though it were a 3-hex creature. That is, the man on foot is engaged, but the horse and rider are not. This applies only to a single footman – two men on the ground would engage a horseman. The reason for this is the extra momentum of a rider at high speed. A single man cannot reasonably hope to engage a charging horseman – but he can engage one who was trotting or standing still, without the momentum to carry himself right past. The same applies to any other 2-hex riding animal.

It also states the following options for Riders and Mounts:

1. Move up to its full MA.
   
2. Move up to half its MA, and/or attack.

With the idea of a horse and rider is not engaged by a 1-hex figure (perhaps a soldier), it should be able to go the horse’s full MA right past the standing soldier and the soldier can’t do anything about it. I have a proposal for a ride-by that allows an attack by the horseman or the soldier.

1. The horseman’s player announces that he is doing a ride-by at a gallop (and must move at least 8 hexes up to the target,) with the intent of attacking (or the soldier attacking if so inclined) and then continuing past at least 8 more hexes this turn. [put a marker down if you wish, to remind you that this is a mid-move for the horse.]
   
   
2. During the Action Phase, do all combats as normal. If the soldier drops, he is prone. If the horse is killed, it drops in the next hex later this turn. If the rider is killed, roll to see if he immediately falls and lands in the next hex later this turn (or perhaps a few hexes further down if he is dragged by the horse).
   
   
3. After all combat is done this turn, the last thing is that the horse is placed at the end spot the horseman’s player had intended. Then the next turn starts.

If going that extra distance in #3 gets the horse "engaged" with another soldier while having moved less than 8 additional hexes, then it is engaged with the new 1-hex figure.


This seems to work if there are a few horses in the battle. I don't know how well it will work for a cavalry squad.

[Shostak]

It might be worth thinking about this without the specificity of ridden animals, and make it about any figure that is effectively 3 or more hexes.

Let's take the example of a giant who moves past a solitary figure. Would the solitary figure get an attack against the giant as it moves on toward its final destination?

[timm meyers]

I think the cleaner solution is simply combining the "value" of all riders and mounts for a total "weight" so to speak of Hex size.
Ex. a 2hex horse with a 1 hex rider = a 3hex creature (still occupying 2 hexes of course). Thus the same engagement rules as say a giant, you need 2 men to effectively engage/stop the thing from moving regardless of their speed.

I like the "ride by" idea but based on historical and some personal experience I would go much further with it. Allowing an attack roll on each and every single enemy target the cavalryman contacts individually. Yes this would mean, in the right environment, multiple attacks all done during movement!

Cavalry was a potent and devastating tool throughout history until the rate of fire effectively stopped their ability to close with the enemy. The only true defense the infantryman had against them was tight heavy formations.
Of course the true Knightly character in our average RPG does not get very many opportunities to experience this glorious superiority as "Trigger" can't fit well in tunnels or tombs and he is forced to fight on foot.

[tomc]

I don't have it handy right now, but I recall Grail Quest had mounted combat. Did it add any rules, and if so would they still be useful after ITL?

[Axly Suregrip]

The biggest problem with riding combat is the very high movement rates. This allows riders that win the initiative to move second, and then run around and to the rear. It feels rather unrealistic.

It is particularly bad when mounted riders are fighting against those on foot. The riders can stay back avoiding engagement until they have the initiative. At that time those on foot cannot get far enough away and have to find ways to cover they back facings.

ITL pg 131 "A rider may attack regardless of how far his mount moved that turn, although the animal itself cannot attack if it moved more than half its MA." This is part of the problem. A light horse has MA 30. A Warhorse has MA 24. Ground troops can be 12 hexes away with MA10 (or less) and they are too far away to engage the rider, and not far enough away to get away from being engaged. And in most cases the riders will be able to find a rear facing to charge.

There should be a rule that if anyone moving 12+ hexes per turn tries to change direction it cannot be tighter than 120 degrees (or 60 degrees). Or something like that. Something to make mounted combat move and flow more like horses with momentum and less like pieces in a game.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

There should be a rule that if anyone moving 12+ hexes per turn tries to change direction it cannot be tighter than 120 degrees (or 60 degrees). Or something like that. Something to make mounted combat move and flow more like horses with momentum and less like pieces in a game.

60 degrees is probably best, since that is a one hex-side shift. This should probably be true for flying figures, too. There should be ways for a fast-moving figure to stop and spin by expending MA.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

There should be a rule that if anyone moving 12+ hexes per turn tries to change direction it cannot be tighter than 120 degrees (or 60 degrees). Or something like that. Something to make mounted combat move and flow more like horses with momentum and less like pieces in a game.

It might be better if it were even fewer hexes per turn, since an equestrian moving a mere 11 hexes could completely (and unrealistically) outmaneuver someone on the ground.*

60 degrees is probably best, since that is a one hex-side shift. This should probably be true for flying figures, too. There should be ways for a fast-moving figure to stop and spin by expending MA.

*Maybe it is worth considering the radical change to allow the side that moved first to change facing after the other side has moved.

[timm meyers]

Trying to integrate mass, speed and momentum into the rules is troublesome. As a "game" + "simulation" you have to try and balance any rules to keep play both tactical and fun while maintaining a sense of reality.

Mounted combat proposal-
Movement rate is based on the mounts MA.
Optional- MA's beyond the base 10-12 human is subject to "acceleration" limits (no 0 to 30 sprints in a single turn). Max acceleration or deceleration of any mount is limited to 50% of their max MA when speeding up or slowing down.

All movement must be straight forward with no facing change within the following speed constraints.

Speed=total MA to be used divided by 10. Ex: Moving 1-10= trot, 11-20= canter, 21-30=gallop
Each speed "level" equals the number of hexes that must be moved straight forward before the mount can instigate a 1 hex side face change or sideslip 1 hex left or right while maintaining their facing.

Ex: trot (lvl1) moving 1-10 hexes in a turn must move "1" hex forward before they may adjust their facing 1 hex side (no cost) or sideslip forward (counts as moving 1 hex). The "Galloping" mount is at lvl 3 maybe moving 24 hexes and must move 3 hexes straight before each face change or sideslip.

Any rider of a mount that is not stopped by normal engagement rules (I add mount and rider together as stated earlier so cavalry are treated as 3 hex creatures and only stopped by entering 2 single warriors fronts) may perform an unlimited number of "ride by" attacks during movement. The enemy may respond in kind if facing allows but "ride by" is treated as a pole weapon for strike order so unless they are mounted or pole armed will always strike second.

At the end of movement the rider/mount is treated as normal for melee (yes they could attack).

Just some thoughts

[Shostak]

Tim, would ride-by attacks be subject to a DX penalty, since they will be attacking out of turn and, possibly, multiple times?

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Tim, would ride-by attacks be subject to a DX penalty, since they will be attacking out of turn and, possibly, multiple times?

The combat adjustments for mounted combat (p.132) are elegant in their simplicity and do a fine job of modeling the basic advantages and disadvantages of horsemanship.
The rules already make the amature rider very clumsy (-3DX) while the expert horseman merely gets to ignore the "disadvantage" of fighting while mounted.

I think with the right limits on manuever a cavalryman would be hard pressed in any scenario to get more than 1 "ride by" attack in a turn.
Optionaly you could limit the action to only one ride by strike per target per turn. This would mitigate any rider being able to ride circles around a lone figure while trotting (MA 10 or less) and wailing down blows after moving each hex (although I like the visual). And remember the target of the rideby gets a free retaliation strike if facing correctly.

Again historicly the mounted enemy was not a foe to be taken lightly. Many times infantry gave up the field rather than risk the fight.
Adventurers meeting mounted brigands on the road should feel as insecure as meeting a band of ogres. If they were knights, most would run for cover immediatly (or surrender).

I wonder if people would have a different perception of game balance and or play if you change the subject to a chariot or war wagon?