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Old 03-12-2023, 12:51 AM   #1
corwyn
 
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Default Dread

So, I'm running Forest's End and the group has encountered a basically solo creature (plus some undead summons) with Dread 5: holy items. Doesn't a cleric make an encounter like this trivial? Turning keeps Draugr/skeletons an average of 8 yards away from the Cleric; Dread keeps it 5 yards away from the Cleric. It's only attack is a touch attack. It's high DR, Diffuse (and the party relying on Move and Attack) will keep it in the fight long enough, I think, to make the fight tedious as it will probably spend most of the fight full moving from the cleric, then possibly summoning a Draugr (it has Altered Time Rate), which can't reach the party (if they're smart).

Do Holy Symbols count as Holy Items?
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Last edited by corwyn; 03-12-2023 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 03-12-2023, 03:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: Dread

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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
So, I'm running Forest's End and the group has encountered a basically solo creature (plus some undead summons) with Dread 5: holy items. Doesn't a cleric make an encounter like this trivial? Turning keeps Draugr/skeletons an average of 8 yards away from the Cleric; Dread keeps it 5 yards away from the Cleric. It's only attack is a touch attack. It's high DR, Diffuse (and the party relying on Move and Attack) will keep it in the fight long enough, I think, to make the fight tedious as it will probably spend most of the fight full moving from the cleric, then possibly summoning a Draugr (it has Altered Time Rate), which can't reach the party (if they're smart).

Do Holy Symbols count as Holy Items?
Certainly they do.

The wraith can move through solids so when it realizes there's a horrible awful holy symbol it can go around to somewhere with bones, spend 9 rounds summoning draugr, and send them into the fight en masse. If it wasn't an angry restless thing it would then hide and rest to do it again but I doubt it rolls that way.

With Turing, the average shouldn't be used. There will always be some farther and, importantly, some nearer.

The draugr have Throwing at 10 with big rocks and are smart enough to use cover. You could give some of them long spears or polearms instead of swords. (Which raises the question: How many and what weapons and armor were mingled among the bones?)

That said, yes, a Will 18 cleric Turning against Will 10 undead will give the party a big edge.
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Old 03-12-2023, 03:50 AM   #3
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Dread

Other than the Draugr, most of which won't be able to reach the party, that sounds tedious. Worse, for $250 each, every delver can be largely immune to anything with Dread.
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Old 03-12-2023, 11:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Dread

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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
So, I'm running Forest's End and the group has encountered a basically solo creature (plus some undead summons) with Dread 5: holy items. Doesn't a cleric make an encounter like this trivial?
Well yes, maybe, in the same way that four UA 571-C Automated Sentry Guns make an encounter with alien xenomorphs trivial.

The bad guy + minions take some casualties and then leave at Move 7 (14 mph). Players win "the encounter". Yay?!

But the bad guy isn't just a mindless animal. Presumably he's going to do something equivalent to cutting the power. The first two that come to mind for me are "set the town on fire" and "split up and start murdering civilians in multiple locations, so the cleric can't protect everyone at once," but you know the context better than I do. Just ask yourself what the players definitely don't want him to do and do that (assuming it makes sense in character).
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Old 03-12-2023, 11:59 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post

But the bad guy isn't just a mindless animal. Presumably he's going to do something equivalent to cutting the power. The first two that come to mind for me are "set the town on fire" and "split up and start murdering civilians in multiple locations, so the cleric can't protect everyone at once," but you know the context better than I do. Just ask yourself what the players definitely don't want him to do and do that (assuming it makes sense in character).
Well, they're in a dungeon, so just hoofing it to town isn't practical. If they get to town, it's a town full of vikings so I don't imagine the Draugr would last that long.

I did realize that he does have a decent ranged attack so it might go a bit "better". Maybe I'll roll well for the Draugr.
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Old 03-12-2023, 08:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dread

A picky point: Draugr aren't listed as "truly evil" and lack Dread, so I don't think Turning and holy items would have an effect.

("Well, these draugr are truly evil" is, of course, an acceptable response. : )

A tangent: Looks like Turning doesn't have a "facing". Might be a little more interesting if it did: say, targets outside the cleric's front hexes suffer lesser effect. Tougher to game out, but it'd yield the fun effect of the zombie horde circling around the cleric, who'd have to keep whipping around to repel zombies drawing too close from behind...

Another tangent: Given the completeness of monster stats in the game, I'm a little surprised that vulnerability to Turning isn't explicitly made a monster disadvantage and specified among traits (presumably as a type of Dread). Oh well, it's clear enough which creatures are subject to it; not a problem.
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Old 03-12-2023, 09:08 PM   #7
corwyn
 
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A picky point: Draugr aren't listed as "truly evil" and lack Dread, so I don't think Turning and holy items would have an effect.

("Well, these draugr are truly evil" is, of course, an acceptable response. : )

A tangent: Looks like Turning doesn't have a "facing". Might be a little more interesting if it did: say, targets outside the cleric's front hexes suffer lesser effect. Tougher to game out, but it'd yield the fun effect of the zombie horde circling around the cleric, who'd have to keep whipping around to repel zombies drawing too close from behind...

Another tangent: Given the completeness of monster stats in the game, I'm a little surprised that vulnerability to Turning isn't explicitly made a monster disadvantage and specified among traits (presumably as a type of Dread). Oh well, it's clear enough which creatures are subject to it; not a problem.
And unlike Skeletons and Zombies, there is no note about "magic to animate is usually true evil". In my case, however, they were summoned by a unique power by a very evil supernatural being so there's that.
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Old 03-13-2023, 10:42 AM   #8
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Default Re: Dread

My recollection of running the reiši encounter in Forest's End was that the party couldn't have possibly survived without the cleric.

I used a spreadsheet to preroll the turning vs. skeletons so I knew how many would be at each range. (And I ran it a few times in case the cleric was forced to drop concentration and start over.) Some of them were unaffected and needed to be fought. Others were able to get close enough to threaten other PCs. Many were able to throw things and otherwise harry the party from a distance. Mostly, though, they acted as a terrifying backdrop... if the cleric went down, the party would be overrun.

When they reached the reiši's chamber, it couldn't approach too close, but the room was large enough that it could always keep the PCs in sight if it wanted to. It ducked into the walls a lot and popped out to use its Drink Life ability against the PCs. Focusing on the cleric, it forced her to drop her Turning a few times to heal up. This changed the configuration of skeletons which forced the other PCs to split their focus. As much as possible, the rest of the party tried to figure out how to do enough damage to the reiši in one turn to drop the thing. I don't remember how they pulled it off in the end, but even with the cleric, it was a very tense fight.
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Old 03-19-2023, 08:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dread

If it is in a dungeon it controls why does it not have nasty traps or ranged defenses it can use to mess with the cleric? Get the druger to drop a slime on him, or throw a basket with a swarm of (snakes? Stirges? Beehives?) to break his concentration. Or have them light fire to a prepared section of tar in the hallway. Really anything to break his concentration so they can close and whomp him.
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Old 03-20-2023, 03:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dread

I generally woud interpret "Holy Items" as magic items that have holy origin (and therefore respond to sanctity instead of mana) and not include ordinary runes and hammers.
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