[MA] Weapon Question: Rope Kusari?

[DanHoward]

You are ignoring the weight. If you swing a knotted rope and a chain of the same weight then the chain definitely moves much faster through the air. If you reduce the weight like in your example then damage and HP is reduced.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Kromm

A chain, being made of denser stuff than rope, has a much lower overall surface area than a rope of comparable mass. This greatly mitigates the drag it feels, improving its speed as a weapon (basically, the long, skinny version of why a 4-lb. steel bar is more maneuverable than a 4-lb. boffer, even if the boffer has all of its weight at the far end as boffers often do). You could of course use a rope with the same surface area as a chain instead of the same mass, but then it would be unduly fragile.

I realize that, but the worked-out weighted rope earlier in the thread has considerably less weight than a chain kusari, and since each chain is an elongated torus with more surface area than a cylinder of the same length, the rope probably has comparable surface area despite being less strong and weighing 1/7th as much per yard.

... unless a kusari's chain is much smaller/thinner than I'm imaging, but then you'd need to include its breaking ST because trying to entangle with a jewelry-weight chain is asking for trouble.

I already posit that a weighted rope will do less damage (sw+1 vs the sw+2 for a kusari) because it weighs less and that it has less robust rope, it's Dan's statement of slower speed giving -1 to skill that I think is silly.

Originally Posted by Refplace

A chain also hits ahrder and is less flexable when striking a soft object then a rope.

You don't hit with the chain, you hit with the weighted end because the speed and force are highest in the swinging weight on the end. Being hit with a chain as it's wrapping around won't do much damage. At least, until the end hits you.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

You are ignoring the weight. If you swing a knotted rope and a chain of the same weight then the chain definitely moves much faster through the air. If you reduce the weight like in your example then damage and HP is reduced.

Ah... I will politely point out that the weighted rope I wrote up weighs far less per yard than the book's kusari chain - about 1/7th the weight when you discount the end-weights of both.

And I fully agree that a rope with the same weight per yard as a chain would have more drag, even though I am not yet convinced that it would be enough for a -1 to skill in GURPS.

[Kromm]

Note that kusari chains are remarkably fine. Their construction was a military secret of sorts at one point.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by ectropy

Ah... I will politely point out that the weighted rope I wrote up weighs far less per yard than the book's kusari chain - about 1/7th the weight when you discount the end-weights of both.

And I fully agree that a rope with the same weight per yard as a chain would have more drag, even though I am not yet convinced that it would be enough for a -1 to skill in GURPS.

Try it and see.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by ectropy

You don't hit with the chain, you hit with the weighted end because the speed and force are highest in the swinging weight on the end. Being hit with a chain as it's wrapping around won't do much damage. At least, until the end hits you.

Then your not using Kusari skill or entangling but the dart as the weapon.
I think I would base that more off whip skill.

[Kromm]

To be fair, strikes with a kusari always use the weighted end. That's the weapon's striking surface. When the chain is the primary point of contact, the goal is always to entangle, never to strike. I rarely use "always" and "never" if I can't back it up; Mol's Classical Weaponry of Japan is widely regarded as a reliable source.

As for skill, both a rope dart and a kusari use the Kusari skill in GURPS. The difference between Kusari and Whip doesn't reside in which part of the weapon (end vs. side) is used to hit the target, or in whether the weapon can entangle. Kusari weapons have a weighted end; Whip weapons do not. It's the presence of the weighted striking surface that makes a Kusari weapon what it is. Both the proper kusari (kusari-fundo, manriki-gusari, etc.) and the shéng biāo (rope dart) fit this description.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Try it and see.

While I haven't done so with the exact weights we're talking about, I have tried with both practice poi and fire-spinning poi (chain instead of string). I found the ones with chains to be more awkward.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by DemiBenson

I realize that, but the worked-out weighted rope earlier in the thread has considerably less weight than a chain kusari, and since each chain is an elongated torus with more surface area than a cylinder of the same length, the rope probably has comparable surface area despite being less strong and weighing 1/7th as much per yard.

... unless a kusari's chain is much smaller/thinner than I'm imaging, but then you'd need to include its breaking ST because trying to entangle with a jewelry-weight chain is asking for trouble.

Because I was curious, I actually decided to calculate what the relative surface areas are for a chain kusari and a 3/8 inch rope, per 1 foot-long section.

Start with Kusari-fundo on wikipedia, follow the link for the long pic with the ruler. Copy that to a handy image editor that can determine lengths, and find pixel lengths for 1 inch on the ruler, the width and length of a whole link, the wire width of a link (is there a word for that?), and the number of links per 1 foot length.

The fine details (I picked a link around the 9 inch mark, since it looked as face-on as possible):

1 inch on the ruler: 202 pixel
Wire width: 21 pixel, ~0.10 inches
Link width: 112 pixel, ~0.55 inches
Link length: 319 pixel, ~1.58 inches
Start-to-start length of a link: 253 pixel, ~1.25 inches, or about 9.58 links per foot (actual number of slack links per foot ~9.8)

Surface Area, assuming links are roughly squarish = (1.58 * 0.55 - 1.38 * 0.35) * 2 + (0.35 * 0.1 * 2) + (0.55 * 0.1 * 2) + (1.58 * 0.1 * 2) + (1.38 * 0.1 * 2) = ~1.54 inch^2
Chain drag per foot (taking 9.7 links per foot) = ~15.0 in^2
(If anyone wants to correct me with better math, be my guest.)

If the link end-cap shapes were perfect semi-circles, Sketchup tells me that's ~1.24 inch^2 per link, which gives ~12 inch^2 per foot length. So the actual value would be somewhere between 12 and 15 sq inches, and closer to the high side since the links are much more square-ended than round-ended.

3/8in rope drag per foot = 3/8 * pi * 12 = ~14.1 in^2


Even though the calculation for the chain is approximate, it's very close to the surface area of the 3/8 inch rope. That's leaving out the increased drag effects of having interlocking square-edged links.

So the chain kusari and the weighted rope would have roughly the same drag along their lengths. The weight and strength of each would be different, but that was not in question.