I still want better rules for shotguns

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

the close range rules are complicated and to me they're weird. Multiply DR? Assume half the pellets hit? I don't like that, and it requires additional math each time. That's complexity.

The close range rules are better interpreted as "The pellets are so close together they can be abstracted into a single, highly frangible slug. Use the statistics for a slug fired by the shotgun, but apply a (0.25) armor divisor."

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Beyond that, to me the rules for how many pellets hit in RAW fails to deal well with multiple shots. I really dislike the abstraction of saying "if you hit with some but not all of the pellets, just assume some are from each shot". Especially since out of 27 pellets for the "normal" shot gun means you'd have to hit by 26 to hit with all of the pellets. Maybe that's not a complexity issue.

First off, mixed loads rarely make a whole lot of sense from a tactical standpoint - you aren't going to be able to realistically keep track of what you're shooting from moment to moment. If you're firing three shotshells and for some reason only one of them is loaded with silver, it's going to be a lot less complicated - and likely not much less accurate - to just say a third of the pellets that hit are made of silver. GURPS RoF rules do have some serious issues with high volumes of fire resulting in pitifully low numbers of hits, of course.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

the close range rules are complicated and to me they're weird. Multiply DR? Assume half the pellets hit? I don't like that, and it requires additional math each time. That's complexity. I'm not saying the math itself is complicated... just the need for it. I have a player that loves shotguns, and wanted to build his character around using one as their main weapon. When he read the rules this was one of the things that made him change his mind.

The presence of those special-case rules is certainly a complication, though it is (as you note) not actually particularly complex and generally only applies at very close ranges (less than 5 yards, for Basic Set shotguns).

Turning around and making an entirely separate set of mechanics for shotguns that still acts differently in two different range bands hardly seems like it's reducing that complexity.

Incidentally, it doesn't (and certainly doesn't say to) assume half the pellets hit. The half is either an arbitrary reduction to keep the damage from being too high, or an effort to create agreement with slug damage. That said, the treatment is effectively the same as assuming half the pellets hit.

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Beyond that, to me the rules for how many pellets hit in RAW fails to deal well with multiple shots. I really dislike the abstraction of saying "if you hit with some but not all of the pellets, just assume some are from each shot". Especially since out of 27 pellets for the "normal" shot gun means you'd have to hit by 26 to hit with all of the pellets. Maybe that's not a complexity issue.

As Varyon notes, that's a very general GURPS problem with high RoF weapons generating often puzzlingly low numbers of hits. It's nothing specific to shotguns.

Under normal circumstances, it has no game effect which shell hits came from. Thus, if for some reason you feel the need to decide the GM can arbitrarily decide (or randomize) however they like. If it does have a game impact, well, that thing I keep pointing at.

[Anthony]

Realistically, shotguns work on the flyswatter principle (it doesn't matter how small the fly is as long as it's smaller than the flyswatter), with the problem that the holes in the flyswatter are pretty big at long ranges. What this means is that you moderately quickly go from "my target is bigger than my flyswatter, so it's all irrelevant" to "my target is so small it slips through the flyswatter".

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically, shotguns work on the flyswatter principle (it doesn't matter how small the fly is as long as it's smaller than the flyswatter), with the problem that the holes in the flyswatter are pretty big at long ranges. What this means is that you moderately quickly go from "my target is bigger than my flyswatter, so it's all irrelevant" to "my target is so small it slips through the flyswatter".

The 'flyswatter' is smaller than the 'fly' (provided you're shooting at humans rather than small birds, anyway) out to fairly substantial ranges...

[Litvyak]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Let's say my player decides to get creative and puts a buck-shot round in first, and follows it by 2 slugs. The character he's playing fires three shots at a single target. If it doesn't matter which of the shots hit when figuring out how many shots hit based on margin of success and rcl number, the player could just say the two slugs hit, plus however many pellets the margin of success allows. But that makes no sense to me. I might need to work to explain why a character would want a buck shot round followed by two slugs, but it's possible, and depending on setting, there might be plenty of good reasons (first one is silver to negate a werewolf's regen, and then the next two are slugs to just do a ton of damage).

My next problem with the way shotguns are handled is this: If we don't allow the user to pick the order to apply their margin of success, we end up with needing a margin of success of at least 8 (so ALL the buckshot hits) before we can consider a possible hit with the next slug. There's no way to have some but not all of the buck shot hit and still have the following slugs hit. And an effective -8 before the slugs might hit seems way too punitive.

It's not RAW, but I would simply treat this as a regular buckshot attack, with the first slug hitting on an MOS of 4 and the second one hitting on an MoS of 8. So:

MoS 0 - 1 pellet hits
MoS 1 - 2 pellets hit
MoS 2 - 3 pellets hit
MoS 3 - 4 pellets hit
MoS 4 - 4 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 5 - 5 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 6 - 6 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 7 - 7 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 8 - 7 pellets and 2 slugs hit
MoS 9 - 8 pellets and 2 slugs hit
MoS 10 - 9 pellets and 2 slugs hit

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Litvyak

It's not RAW, but I would simply treat this as a regular buckshot attack, with the first slug hitting on an MOS of 4 and the second one hitting on an MoS of 8. So:

MoS 0 - 1 pellet hits
MoS 1 - 2 pellets hit
MoS 2 - 3 pellets hit
MoS 3 - 4 pellets hit
MoS 4 - 4 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 5 - 5 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 6 - 6 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 7 - 7 pellets and 1 slug hit
MoS 8 - 7 pellets and 2 slugs hit
MoS 9 - 8 pellets and 2 slugs hit
MoS 10 - 9 pellets and 2 slugs hit

The problem with this is that it means that firing a mix of buck and slugs is better for hitting with slugs than firing just slugs would be.

[Litvyak]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The problem with this is that it means that firing a mix of buck and slugs is better for hitting with slugs than firing just slugs would be.

I'm not following how this would be the case.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Litvyak

I'm not following how this would be the case.

Because you get a big fat RoF bonus for firing the buckshot...

But I overestimated the impact. 2x buck (9 each) and 1x slug would only be just as good for hitting as firing the slug alone, with your scheme. 1x buck and 2x slugs would be worse than just firing slugs.

(Of course, using some kind of small shot to generate a really big RoF bonus would break it horribly...)

[Litvyak]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Because you get a big fat RoF bonus for firing the buckshot...

But I overestimated the impact. 2x buck (9 each) and 1x slug would only be just as good for hitting as firing the slug alone, with your scheme. 1x buck and 2x slugs would be worse than just firing slugs.

(Of course, using some kind of small shot to generate a really big RoF bonus would break it horribly...)

Yeah, that's why I didn't have the first slug hit on MoS 0. Giving it some more thought, though, I'd probably have the first slug hit on an MoS equal to the RoF bonus, and subsequent slugs hit on every full increment of recoil after that. So in the previous example the first slug would hit on MoS 2 and the second slug on MoS 6.

That way even small shot with a really big RoF bonus wouldn't break it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The 'flyswatter' is smaller than the 'fly' (provided you're shooting at humans rather than small birds, anyway) out to fairly substantial ranges...

Not that long range; it appears to be comparable in width to a human target at around 10-15 yards. At less than that, it doesn't actually help you hit; on the other hand, at a hundred yards the pattern is so large that you'll probably hit with less than one. A reasonable estimate:

• Pattern gives +1 to hit: 1d+1 hits
• Pattern gives +2 to hit: 1d-1 hits.
• Pattern gives +3 to hit: 1d-3 hits.
• Pattern gives +4 to hit: 1d-4 hits.
• Pattern gives +5 to hit: 1d-5 hits.