I still want better rules for shotguns

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Hah... okay. suggest something. So far, the RAW still seems pretty bad to me, and I'm liking the beginning of the alternate rules. I'd love help on some of the rules I'm less familiar with. For example, I don't even know where the bonus to hit for "shot" type rounds is defined in the basic set. I wouldn't have known to address it at all if you hadn't said something.

...It seems to me you probably should at least know what the RAW is if you're going to say that?

It's the rapid fire bonus (Basic 373-374), with the additional considerations from Shotguns and Multiple Projectiles on Basic 409.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...It seems to me you probably should at least know what the RAW is if you're going to say that?

It's the rapid fire bonus (Basic 373-374), with the additional considerations from Shotguns and Multiple Projectiles on Basic 409.

Fair enough point, but my dislike for the RAW for shotguns is around the way RoF and rcl are handled.

As for rapid fire, it looks like I wouldn't have to address it really. Keep that bonus to hit table the same.

[Ulzgoroth]

I do want to repeat that the complaint you've actually expressed here is addressed in Tactical Shooting, as I previously referenced.

Other than that, you haven't explained what you're trying to fix. I submit that making the number of pellets that hit per shell independent of range (beyond 2 yards) and target size is probably not a good design choice, though.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I do want to repeat that the complaint you've actually expressed here is addressed in Tactical Shooting, as I previously referenced.

Other than that, you haven't explained what you're trying to fix. I submit that making the number of pellets that hit per shell independent of range (beyond 2 yards) and target size is probably not a good design choice, though.

I don't have Tactical Shooting. And it rubs me the wrong way that you'd have to buy a supplement to make the basic rules work.

As for number of shots that hit being independent of range... that's not true. It applies the range penalty to the number of pellets that hit. I forgot about size, but it would make sense to add the size modifier too.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I do want to repeat that the complaint you've actually expressed here is addressed in Tactical Shooting, as I previously referenced.

Other than that, you haven't explained what you're trying to fix. I submit that making the number of pellets that hit per shell independent of range (beyond 2 yards) and target size is probably not a good design choice, though.

Oh right... also... what I'm trying to fix is the problems with the RAW from the basic set. The way "shot" rounds are handled is very limiting, and doesn't handle all the situations that I want them to. Most notably, the lack of ability with the basic set rules to handle buckshot followed by a slug. At least not realistically.

RAW from the basic set is bad enough that my players avoid using shotguns entirely to avoid the headache. So the other problem I'm hoping to address is the one of complexity that stops my players from using a feature of the game.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I don't have Tactical Shooting. And it rubs me the wrong way that you'd have to buy a supplement to make the basic rules work.

In almost all cases, including this one, you don't...unless you want to do things that the more basic rules don't cover.

Originally Posted by kdtipa

As for number of shots that hit being independent of range... that's not true. It applies the range penalty to the number of pellets that hit. I forgot about size, but it would make sense to add the size modifier too.

You're quite right, I overlooked that.

Uh. Is making it outright impossible to land any hits with buckshot beyond 50 yards an intended feature?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Oh right... also... what I'm trying to fix is the problems with the RAW from the basic set. The way "shot" rounds are handled is very limiting, and doesn't handle all the situations that I want them to. Most notably, the lack of ability with the basic set rules to handle buckshot followed by a slug. At least not realistically.

RAW from the basic set is bad enough that my players avoid using shotguns entirely to avoid the headache. So the other problem I'm hoping to address is the one of complexity that stops my players from using a feature of the game.

There's a RAW answer to that one thing.

I still have literally no information about your other complaints.

Many things could be said about the shotgun rules, but I'm very much at a loss as to how complexity could be one of them. What is the actual issue, specifically?

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

How many pellets hit with Buckshot?
Outside of 2 yards, roll to see how many of the pellets hit. To figure out what to roll, take the multiplier in the RoF stat of the shotgun that's using the buckshot. The common number is x9. Fit as many d6s into that number as possible (in this case 1), and add the rest as a modifier. So in this case we're talking about 1d+3. If the multiplier is less than 6, subtract enough so a roll of 6 gives the max number. So a multiplier of 4 would be 1d-2. Apply the range penalty to that number. So even if you roll well with skill, you might miss a target completely that's far away.

A load of .410 buckshot normally fires 3 pellets. It should be possible to hit things with a .410 at ranges past 7 yards.

Your rules are possibly simpler, but they work noticeably worse than the standard rules.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Many things could be said about the shotgun rules, but I'm very much at a loss as to how complexity could be one of them. What is the actual issue, specifically?

the close range rules are complicated and to me they're weird. Multiply DR? Assume half the pellets hit? I don't like that, and it requires additional math each time. That's complexity. I'm not saying the math itself is complicated... just the need for it. I have a player that loves shotguns, and wanted to build his character around using one as their main weapon. When he read the rules this was one of the things that made him change his mind.

Beyond that, to me the rules for how many pellets hit in RAW fails to deal well with multiple shots. I really dislike the abstraction of saying "if you hit with some but not all of the pellets, just assume some are from each shot". Especially since out of 27 pellets for the "normal" shot gun means you'd have to hit by 26 to hit with all of the pellets. Maybe that's not a complexity issue.

I'm stuck on the word complex because of the previous thread I guess. Lots of rules from tactical shooting were brought up (or at least from a supplement) that made it seem complicated.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

A load of .410 buckshot normally fires 3 pellets. It should be possible to hit things with a .410 at ranges past 7 yards.

Your rules are possibly simpler, but they work noticeably worse than the standard rules.

Hmm... good point. So the number of pellets that hit needs work in the draft alternate rules. I appreciate the heads-up. I hadn't considered low pellet loads carefully enough.