Tactical Shooting Positions

[trans]

In the mid-late 19th century at least duellists would sometimes bend their arm when presenting their pistol with one hand, with the idea that the arm might take the hit and spare their vitals.

Like here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lustrierte.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...l_pistolet.JPG

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

For the sake of argument I'll point out; I've never heard of a modern sprinter racing horses like Jessie Owens did.

Because that's a spectacle, not a competition, and I think a lot of sprinters would think it somewhat degrading (according to Wikipedia, Jesse was quoted as saying "People say that it was degrading for an Olympic champion to run against a horse, but what was I supposed to do? I had four gold medals, but you can't eat four gold medals"). The important thing (today) is how quickly you can run, not if you can outrun a young horse, and while Jesse Owens did set some world records he no longer holds them (at least, I can't find any mention of such).

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

I sense something like the SM-rule ('use the longest dimension') as what's not giving a penalty to hit a sideways person (since they don't get shorter) but you're saying that shooting someone in profile is just as easy as shooting someone straight-on?

I can't speak for Kromm, but I'd probably give no penalty for hit location-less (roll to see where you hit) side-on shots, but maybe a -1 to Torso shots (as it's no longer box-shaped from that direction). I wouldn't decrease the penalty to hit the Vitals, however.

[Kromm]

The current world sprinting records are all held by people who set them between 1998 and 2009. But at any rate, we aren't comparing sprinters who could've met and shaken hands. We're comparing sprinters from the original Olympics in ancient Greece to chaps who sprint today.

As for vitals from the side . . . the human torso is basically a flat plate. There are vital and nonvital areas in it. From the front or back, you can punch holes through the nonvital parts. From the side, though, there are few or no paths that don't have vitals along them. Looking at just the thorax:

########### . . . ##
########### . . . ##
########### . . . ##
########### . . . ##
########### . . . ##
########### . . . ##
########### . . . ##
FRONT/BACK . . . . SIDES

The red, blue, and purple areas are things you don't want to hit – vitals. The white areas are relatively low-value targets: ribs, muscle, empty space. From the front or back, you can miss the vitals. From the side, you really can't. Also note that the sternum in front and vertebrae in back tend to deflect blows away from the heart. From the sides, you get only the lesser protection of ordinary ribs. And just about all torso armor is weaker under the arm. It's a fairly well-documented phenomenon in warfare that a higher percentage of blows that enter from the side, under the arm, are killing blows; history is full of accounts of people killed this way.

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The red, blue, and purple areas are things you don't want to hit – vitals. The white areas are relatively low-value targets: ribs, muscle, empty space. From the front or back, you can miss the vitals. From the side, you really can't. Also note that the sternum in front and vertebrae in back tend to deflect blows away from the heart. From the sides, you get no such protection.

Yeah, but what I got you saying was that Vitals change size in order to be easier to hit. Since there's no DR for rib cages I'd imagined that GURPS ignores it's presence for simplicity. SuedodeuS' example about Torso shots from the side not needing much in the way or 'rolling for vitals hit' sounds, mechanically, like what you're saying though. Am I right?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Yeah, but what I got you saying was that Vitals change size in order to be easier to hit. Since there's no DR for rib cages I'd imagined that GURPS ignores it's presence for simplicity. SuedodeuS' example about Torso shots from the side not needing much in the way or 'rolling for vitals hit' sounds, mechanically, like what you're saying though. Am I right?

No, you're wrong. Size isn't the whole of hit location penalties. There are also factors for degree of presentation, typical movement, and the presence of hard, shielding body parts that tend to deflect blows. I once presented a breakdown. The short version, though, is that if you present your vitals by turning them toward a foe and raising your arm, and also remove the highly deflective sternum and possibly your strongest armor from the equation, there's more-or-less a +1 to hit for each, taking that -3 to -1.

Thinking about it another way, even if you insist on -1 to hit in profile, there's nowhere in profile that won't hit the vitals. Ergo, any torso hit is a vitals hit.

[Ubiquitous]

[QUOTE=Kromm;970374]No, you're wrong. Size isn't the whole of hit location penalties. There are also factors for degree of presentation, typical movement, and the presence of hard, shielding body parts that tend to deflect blows. I once presented a breakdown. The short version, though, is that if you present your vitals by turning them toward a foe and raising your arm, and also remove the highly deflective sternum and possibly your strongest armor from the equation, there's more-or-less a +1 to hit for each, taking that -3 to -1.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Thinking about it another way, even if you insist on -1 to hit in profile, there's nowhere in profile that won't hit the vitals. Ergo, any torso hit is a vitals hit.

Yeah, I got this when SeudodeuS said what he said.

Say, Kromm, since you didn't mentioned it in-thread I'm assuming it's either time-consuming or you're on the clock, but in any case think you could PM me some Hit Location modifiers for presentation and whatnot? I could only imagine dispensing a shaving sentry would be easier since he'd be A) lifting or arm to shave and therefore making side-on Vitals shots easier, or B) maybe cocking his neck to get that tough spot, making neck-chops easier.

[Kromm]

See this thread.

[Ubiquitous]

Thanks, appreciate it.