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Old 04-13-2011, 12:53 AM   #11
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
(delusions have built into their cost that if they're discovered to be true they're paid off). h.
What gives you that idea? As long as you continue to act crazy as a result, you still have the disadvantage.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

Huh, and here I was thinking of Bob/Nefarious* (from Emergency Exit). Honestly, giving the character an Enemy equal in strength to the "demon's" point total would be appropriate. Frequency of Appearance would be Always, but with an Accessibility modifier representing how rarely the character actually lets himself turn into it (with all the emphasis on trying not to have to change, -80% may be appropriate).

As a bit of a warning, I should note that the power creep in Bleach turned Ichigo's hollow form from something extremely awesome (when it was uncontrollable), to something pretty neat (when it was controllable but had a very short time limit), to "Oh, look, Ichigo's got the mask on again" (when it became basically Ichigo's standard thing). Avoiding this is likely going to be a very good idea.


*My thought process:
"... very difficult to accomplish..." - Hit him. In the head.
"... require very rare or special ingredients..." - Chocolate. Demons love chocolate.
"... require extensive research..." - Wonder if white chocolate would work?
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
Designing the AF and all that I had a handle on.

It's the "split personality" part that's the problem - it's my only real point of confusion. Because really the disadvantage "Split Personality" doesn't apply here. It's a mental disadvantage with a self-control number that only gets triggered under stressful situations. It's not "always on", not even if you buy it at 2.5x so that there is no self-control number. If you read the Split Personality description, it also works sort of like a disadvantageous AF but only for mental traits as it is.

So it seems to me that Split Personality is the wrong tool for the job, that's my problem. The fact that this AF is a distinct personality and identity means that it is always that distinct personality and identity in that form, and the "Dr. Jekyll" of the two is always his own personality and identity too in his form (just an example, we're not doing Dr. J and Mr. H - although that's another good fictional example of this AF as a split personality thing!) .

Now, having the base character and the AF have two different personalities is easy - the AF gets different mental disadvantages than the base character, things like Bloodlust and Berserk and Sadism and other cute and cuddly things like that, and the base character can have his own distinct mental ads and disads. So far so good.

The problem comes in figuring out the appropriate disadvantage to represent the facts that: (1) the AF believes (correctly) that it is a distinct individual identity and not at all the same person as the base character and hence only interested in keeping "Dr. Jekyll" alive because they share the same body and (2) in fact would go out of its way and be happy and to destroy the base character's property, friends, and all other aspects of his life, actively seeking to take over and prevent the base character from being changed back, all around acting a lot like a powerful Enemy (albeit one that is controlled by the player and shares the same body).

So how do I do that? I'm really not sure I like the idea of the AF being an Enemy even if that's kind of how it acts, and I don't think Delusion (I'm a separate identity) is accurate because it's a true, not a false belief (delusions have built into their cost that if they're discovered to be true they're paid off). It's certainly not a "feature" or a "quirk". It's a big deal. The AF isn't just the base character's mind with bestial, aggressive, and violent qualities, but a different mind (one that knows everything the other knows), a different person, hostile to the first, and capable of acting on that hostility if not kept on a tight leash.
Maybe you need a modified form of Stress Atavism. Sever sounds good to me and base the end cost on the 'rarity' of the circumstances involved in the change.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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What gives you that idea? As long as you continue to act crazy as a result, you still have the disadvantage.
This (p. B130):

"If your Delusion turns out to be true, you don’t have to buy it off until the other players realize it’s true."

And the other players will know it's true (that the AF is a distinct person) - it'll be obvious. The AF won't be viewed as "crazy" (which a lot of the point of the cost of Delusions), and also won't be acting crazy (maybe evil and violent, but not crazy, and certainly not due to holding this true belief).

Delusion (Severe) might still be the least bad (aka best) tool for the job, but the fact is that no one will ever think or consider or call the AF Delusional nor will it impact the AF's interests negatively.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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Huh, and here I was thinking of Bob/Nefarious* (from Emergency Exit). Honestly, giving the character an Enemy equal in strength to the "demon's" point total would be appropriate. Frequency of Appearance would be Always, but with an Accessibility modifier representing how rarely the character actually lets himself turn into it (with all the emphasis on trying not to have to change, -80% may be appropriate).
Thanks! You know, the more I think about it the more Enemy makes sense. It solidifies the idea of just how antagonistic, dangerous, and malevolent it is, and that it's a distinct and separate person. Note that he won't always be choosing to change - we haven't set an HP threshold yet, but change will also be triggered by a certain amount of accumulated injury.

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
As a bit of a warning, I should note that the power creep in Bleach turned Ichigo's hollow form from something extremely awesome (when it was uncontrollable), to something pretty neat (when it was controllable but had a very short time limit), to "Oh, look, Ichigo's got the mask on again" (when it became basically Ichigo's standard thing). Avoiding this is likely going to be a very good idea.
Don't I know it! No, this is only loosely inspired by Ichigo and his hollow form, but unlike hollows (which aren't really "evil" per se - at least not all of them), this thing is an unrepentant monster bent on bringing death and destruction to everything not because it gains anything out of those things, not because it even enjoys those things (which would, at least, be something), but because it genuinely wants to cause those things frequently and in abundance as ends in themselves, even at great risk to itself. This thing hates everything, including itself. Ichigo's inner hollow loved itself, wanted to survive at all costs, and over time seems to show a kind of warped concern and affection for Ichigo that looked like it was more than just sharing the same body / soul. There won't be any of that here; our game is dark and tragic, just the way we like it, and this thing has no redeeming qualities other than being powerful and good at killing in a pinch. :-)
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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Thanks! You know, the more I think about it the more Enemy makes sense. It solidifies the idea of just how antagonistic, dangerous, and malevolent it is, and that it's a distinct and separate person. Note that he won't always be choosing to change - we haven't set an HP threshold yet, but change will also be triggered by a certain amount of accumulated injury.
If you haven't yet, take a look at Berserk (the Disadvantage, not the anime/manga - but take a look at that too). It is triggered by any case of more than 1/4 HP injury (as well as when something similar happens to a loved one, although I suspect that isn't the case here) in a single second. A good accumulated threshold is when the character is at less than 1/3 HP - at this point the base character will be suffering enough penalties the "beast" will certainly need to take over to insure he doesn't end up getting killed.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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If you haven't yet, take a look at Berserk (the Disadvantage, not the anime/manga - but take a look at that too). It is triggered by any case of more than 1/4 HP injury (as well as when something similar happens to a loved one, although I suspect that isn't the case here) in a single second. A good accumulated threshold is when the character is at less than 1/3 HP - at this point the base character will be suffering enough penalties the "beast" will certainly need to take over to insure he doesn't end up getting killed.
Thanks, 1/3 HP sounds like a good and reasonable threshold.

As far as the loved one thing from Berserk, although I don't think it should be a trigger for the auto-change, it's possible that the player might decide it's worth the risk to transform under certain circumstances if he sees his loved ones or friends in danger of being killed. They'd have to be in pretty serious danger though, or else he'd have to feel pretty assured they had a plan or a trick up their sleeves to get "him" back afterwards, otherwise he might only make things worse or get them killed. He couldn't know their plan for that, nor even be sure they had one, or else the beast might attack them to prevent being used and then subdued again later. But under the right circumstances, the beast could be justifiably deemed worth the risk in the face of near certain death.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:01 AM   #18
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
This (p. B130):

"If your Delusion turns out to be true, you don’t have to buy it off until the other players realize it’s true."
I'm still not seeing how this affects the cost, especially when the cost is the same if the delusion is not true.
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:16 AM   #19
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

I was totally thinking of Samurai Deeper Kyo
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Old 04-13-2011, 10:04 AM   #20
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Default Re: Alternate Form that's a Split Personality?

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I'm still not seeing how this affects the cost, especially when the cost is the same if the delusion is not true.
It affects cost because big parts of the cost involve (1) being perceived as crazy by your peers and others and (2) acting crazy as a result of a false belief.

If the condition (1) does not hold because the players know it "isn't really him" and condition (2) doesn't hold because (a) it's not a false belief and (b) his functionality and ability to act according to his own nature (as defined by the mental traits of the Alternate Form) aren't impaired at all and his actions - although malicious - can't honestly be called "crazy", then where is the "delusion" aspect of this? It'd fit none of the requirements to be a Delusion.

Incidentally, although it may not be ipso facto the canonical description of a Delusion in GURPS, check out the clinical Indicators of a Delusion. I think it helps to get a better handle on the thing. Specifically, if someone fit the listed indicators, even if what they believed was true and everyone knew it, I'd still call them Delusional and let a PC playing their Delusion like that keep the disadvantage as is.

But I have a problem using Delusion as a way to represent a belief that's inconvenient (even seriously) for the overall character. If I went that way, I may as well make believing in the tenets of Judaism during the Spanish Inquisition a Delusion, make early Christians in the ancient Roman Empire (pre-conversion) Delusional, make Galileo Delusional for his belief in the heliocentric model (based on seeing it with his own eyes), or make transgendered people Delusional. None of those things seem quite right as Delusions (maybe the first two, which involve religious belief and thus shares much in common with clinical delusional disorder, but certainly not the last two which are known true beliefs). I'd definitely say Fanaticism for those willing to martyr themselves for their religious beliefs though.

And, I guess, maybe Fanaticism ("I'm not the base character" along with a few other tenets like Darkness and Destruction being ends in themselves) is a good choice. It has the advantage that it's always on (no self-control basis), and it can be used to model extreme adherence and devotion to any belief, true or otherwise. I think I'll put that on the AF as one of its mental disadvantages. I still like SuedodeuS's idea of reducing point cost by balancing this out and making this personality an Enemy, and the Fanaticism on the AF isn't incompatible with that, it just lowers the Enemy's CP by -15. I think together they most accurately reflect the true "advantage" this build has to the character.
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