Value of Disadvantage that forces you to shapeshift involuntarily?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Having a trait that says "you, the player, aren't allowed to choose to do anything in a given scene" is very much a disadvantage. In fact I tend to shy away from letting my players take any disad like that if it would crop up more than once every few sessions and they tend to dislike them even more than I do.

I think you're right, but a predictable or controllable trigger and the right form could be a limited advantage so the GM would have to be very careful to prevent abuse of a Compulsive Shapeshifting/Involuntary Shapeshifting disad.

For example, if you can plan to lock werewolf guy up with the bad guys at dusk on the night of the full moon werewolf guy has an advantage. A prince forced to shapeshift into an ordinary butterfly when he sees or smells flowers has a disadvantage. ("Oops, it happened again. Get the net.")

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

The problem with Uncontrollable on Alternate Form is it only applies to the base 15 point cost - not the point cost of the form itself. And as has been noted shapeshifting when you don't want to can be very costly in game - you can end up with a mob after you. Thus Compulsive Shapeshifting was my answer - and it works for the most part.

The Alternative Form may still be cheaper than the original even if it is "more powerful" due to Disads like Bestial, low IQ, Bloodlust, Sadism etc.

I dont know if the Alternate Form ends up more expensive than the original under a DISAD if that extra cost would also count as a Disad. I suppose that turning into a frenzied world-breaker-demon may count towards a bigger disad count

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

If it's Uncontrollable and you lose control then once you have transformed you have to make a will roll to regain control and change back. You can do so once a second but the odds are pretty good that you'll make a 14-roll. Thus there will likely be a delay of no more than one second before you regain control once you start trying to do that.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

You have the Alternate Form advantage. Let's s say you can shift into the form of a large intelligent wolf.

But you also have a disadvantage that triggers in the same circumstances that Bad Temper would trigger. And when it triggers, you are locked into spending the next 10 seconds shifting into your Alternate Form. You cannot stop the transformation and you cannot do anything else.

This could be really dangerous in combat.

And outing yourself as a werewolf in mixed company probably won't go over very well in most settings.

How much would such a disadvantage be worth?

I think somebody is trying to adapt Werewolf the Apocalipse to Gurps, yes?

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

You have the Alternate Form advantage. Let's s say you can shift into the form of a large intelligent wolf.

But you also have a disadvantage that triggers in the same circumstances that Bad Temper would trigger. And when it triggers, you are locked into spending the next 10 seconds shifting into your Alternate Form. You cannot stop the transformation and you cannot do anything else.

This could be really dangerous in combat.

And outing yourself as a werewolf in mixed company probably won't go over very well in most settings.

How much would such a disadvantage be worth?

Maybe an Uncontrollabe Trigger with Nuisance effect and Required Disadvantage (Bad Temper)

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I think you're right, but a predictable or controllable trigger and the right form could be a limited advantage so the GM would have to be very careful to prevent abuse of a Compulsive Shapeshifting/Involuntary Shapeshifting disad.

For example, if you can plan to lock werewolf guy up with the bad guys at dusk on the night of the full moon werewolf guy has an advantage. A prince forced to shapeshift into an ordinary butterfly when he sees or smells flowers has a disadvantage. ("Oops, it happened again. Get the net.")

I do agree with a fully controllable trigger being an advantage. But I'm not sure your werewolf example fits; "If you can plan to lock up the bad guys" already puts things under your control and largely lets you deal with them. And you still don't have control over the werewolf so who knows if the werewolf will focus on the baddies or break through the cell/wall and let them out.

Then again, I'm also pretty against charging someone for werewolf's "transform only during the evening of one night a month during which they don't have control". It's such a tiny period of time to have an advantage (and something I disagree with how Accessibility prices things) that isn't even really an advantage.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I do agree with a fully controllable trigger being an advantage. But I'm not sure your werewolf example fits

OK, not a great example. The idea I was going for was that a predictable triggering condition or cycle allows any decent group of players to plan around the character's shapeshifting and maybe use it to their advantage.

The classic trope is locking up the werewolf character in a strong cage during the nights of the full moon (e.g., Oz in Buffy the Vampire Slayer), turning a potentially huge liability into a Quirk.

If the players can figure out a way to turn the shapeshifter PC into an asset, even if it's a massive hassle to set up the right conditions, it's an advantage.

The classic trope is the rest of the party locking themselves in the werewolf's cage while the werewolf transforms and rampages, shredding the bad guys before it runs off into a nearby woods.

A classic Hollywood horror movie werewolf character would start off with a disadvantage, waking up buck naked in the woods, covered with blood, and missing several days of memories. Once they realize that they're a werewolf and that they change by the light of the full moon, they can start buying down the disadvantage to Quirk level, possibly by exchanging the Involuntary Shapeshifting/Compulsive Shapeshifting disad for an appropriate Secret.

At Quirk level, they've got a safe, secure, and private place to lock themselves up for a few days and have the equivalent of a minor Non-Hazardous Duty ("Stay off the streets during the full moon").

Once they learn to precisely predict their changes, or even control their change to some degree, they have an advantage. ("I'll arrange it so I arrive at Dracula's castle before the moon rises, get inside before they close the gate for the night, find someplace away from the guards so I can transform without being attacked, and then let the wolf rage. The rest of the party can come in the next morning and mop up what's left.")

Likewise, any degree of conscious control over their shapeshifted form is also an advantage, even if it's "kill enemies in preference to friends or neutrals."

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=5782

If you further can't control the form at all, Designer's Notes for Powers has a Disadvantageous Alternate Form. I think I'd change the prices having used it myself, adding at least -5 to prices or just doubling them. In effect, you have a disadvantage that replaces the PC with an NPC under certain circumstances.

They also put it on page 18 of GURPS Horror 4e.

Turning into something extremely vulnerable, like a clam, can be a problem. Becoming the Death God can be useful if you abuse it properly; just be sure you're on enemy territory when the trigger gets pulled.

Those notes feel incomplete without the Clam and Death God racial templates.

[Inky]

:-D

Actually, Alternate Form (Clam) (on purpose) might be a not totally useless trick to have, if you did it in long grass or behind something you could at least use it to hide.

Would a cage count as a Mitigator on whatever Disadvantage or Disadvantages this is? It seems like the kind of thing that's a Mitigator. (And, to use the Buffy example, that is pretty much how it played out in Buffy. Non-issue except when due to whatever craziness Oz couldn't get to his cage in time. Which is the kind of thing Mitigator is usually for).

Technically, this is kind of equivalent to having all the Advantages that the form gives you with the relevant Trigger or Accessibility, and all the Disadvantages that the form gives you with the relevant Trigger or Accessibility, isn't it? That would be a long-winded way of spelling it, but it might make more logical sense. So, for instance, that might include ST +5 (Only on a failed Bad Temper roll, -X%) but also Horizontal (ditto) and Social Stigma (Monster) (ditto).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Inky

Actually, Alternate Form (Clam) (on purpose) might be a not totally useless trick to have, if you did it in long grass or behind something you could at least use it to hide.

Also probably good for avoiding drowning if you get pitched overboard in a storm

or if you need someone to sneak you into a building, Ally can carry you.

Changes in SM being 0pt features actually could make Shapeshifting a cheaper alternative to Shrinking in some cases.