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Old 06-01-2021, 08:13 PM   #61
WingedKagouti
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
I thought I made it clear that I was aware Enslave only makes the ensorcelled loyal to the caster. Saying it again; the point is that this gives the caster an edge in those "careers", and eventually, maybe even in political power.
With the specific limitations on how Enslave works, I'd be very adverse to buying a slave that has been Enslaved. That slave could easily ruin the buyer's life in a vast variety of ways without any kind of notice, and the most likely way is being kidnapped for Enslavement. Depending on how large a percentage of the population the mage has Enslaved, the previous slave "owner" may or may not return to their position as a cover (or just for convenience).

It's not that the people able to cast Enslave will get "an edge", the people with Enslave will be the only people with any real power.
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Old 06-01-2021, 08:46 PM   #62
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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With the specific limitations on how Enslave works, I'd be very adverse to buying a slave that has been Enslaved. That slave could easily ruin the buyer's life in a vast variety of ways without any kind of notice, and the most likely way is being kidnapped for Enslavement. Depending on how large a percentage of the population the mage has Enslaved, the previous slave "owner" may or may not return to their position as a cover (or just for convenience).

It's not that the people able to cast Enslave will get "an edge", the people with Enslave will be the only people with any real power.

The romans were particulary touchy about enslaved roman citizens, so this may be a problem, but as long as a slave is not considered a tool with the aim working hin to death because he is relative cheap compared to the products he crafts like cane sugar in the caribic, Even abduction and wars arenīt necessary to staff the market. People get children and the old US chattel slavery was running well even after cut of from replacement by the british fleet. Or to quote a planter of that time ( his words ) " a good field negroe, reproduces well".

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It's behind the Very Hard fence (which I have always interpreted to mean an uncommon spell that's hard to find books or teachers for) and costs 30 points of energy. What's more it only makes the slave loyal to the caster. Thus it's the perfect tool for Dark Lords turning enemies into minions and assuring the loyalty of their generals and assassins but not great for anyone just looking to buy a courtesan or a field hand.
Rulewise such a spell is not much harder than for example enchanting, and Tredroy has depending on the Edition between 100 - 250K inhabitants, 30 master enchanters and 150 journeyman, thatīs more than enough to keep such a system running.

Further up the thread is a suggestion for a enslave spell that makes slaves loyal to the owner not the caster. Anyway there is the spell Lesser Geas which forces a person to obey a sngle command, just let this command be, Serv ( buyers name ) as a obidient, happy, and hard working slave as long as you live, ... .
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Old 06-01-2021, 08:59 PM   #63
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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Anyway there is the spell Lesser Geas which forces a person to obey a sngle command, just let this command be, Serv ( buyers name ) as a obidient, happy, and hard working slave as long as you live, ... .
Speaking as a GM, I would not allow that for Lesser Geas, which is limited to one command 'to do one specific thing' (GURPS Magic p140). Great Geas (Magic p141) allows you to give 'one continuing command,' and thus might work - though the commands listed in the spell description are simpler in phrasing than the one you use, so that might not work either. We might need to see if Kromm has time to answer.
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Old 06-01-2021, 10:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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And I don't really get it. Enslave is an expensive spell with a long prerequisite chain intended to put people under permanent control. If all you are using it for is keeping slaves docile in transit it's overkill. It's hardly going to put all your competitors who just use manacles and threats to manage their merchandise out of business. The Charm spell would work better if you were skill 20 but there are so many other ways you can take advantage of other people with Charm.
Enslave isn't easy to cast with the Quick & Dirty method, but it is still plausible. It is a Very Hard spell, so the same CP invested for most Spells (which are just Hard) will result in a Skill Level that is one less. Which means leeway for one fewer assistants in the Quick & Dirty casting method. That does matter, but the Energy Cost is 30. That's the same as the Staff spell (p. B481). Staff's Quick & Dirty cost is $30 (see p.B483).

Yes, Enslave has an extensive prerequisite chain. That does mean the mage has to spend longer pursuing it, but it isn't like the Spells involved in that chain are going to be useless to someone in the slave trade, or similar pursuits. Enslave seems pretty obviously worth it for select slaves... all that we need is for someone in the slave trade to work out a more efficient way to do it. Like one caster with Skill 17 in Enslave, and two assistants who also know the Spell. So that the Quick & Dirty method can be used to cast at Skill 15, while each caster burns 6 FP plus drains a 4 FP Power Stone. One hour to cast, one hour to recover their lost FP through, then swap out the Stones for fresh ones and repeat.

At first, it is still somewhat rare, but as time goes on, it becomes SOP. Why? Enslaved people are great for helping to capture more people to Enslave. They're willing to tell you everything they know, helping you pick better targets, and letting you know the best uses for themselves as slaves. They not only aren't trying to escape, but provided their master instructs them properly, they'll do their best to get along with everyone else involved.

They're not trying to sabotage efforts to move them around or capture more slaves. They're not getting depressed at being a slave. They're not going to become desperate and commit suicide. They'll do their best for their master as they understand it, so you can get them to show off their capabilities to potential buyers... though you might not want to let them know that is what is actually happening at the time.

Better capture rates for less cost. Better survival rates. An easier time showing what they can do. Less expensive to keep enslaved. The possibility of actually training your slaves up a bit, since they're all eager to serve you so instructing them "Learn this." is only risky if they are inept at learning the chosen skill. It all adds up. Or at least, it all could add up, circumstances permitting.
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Old 06-01-2021, 10:49 PM   #65
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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With the specific limitations on how Enslave works, I'd be very adverse to buying a slave that has been Enslaved. That slave could easily ruin the buyer's life in a vast variety of ways without any kind of notice, and the most likely way is being kidnapped for Enslavement. Depending on how large a percentage of the population the mage has Enslaved, the previous slave "owner" may or may not return to their position as a cover (or just for convenience).

It's not that the people able to cast Enslave will get "an edge", the people with Enslave will be the only people with any real power.
Here's where I may have goofed up: how hard is it for someone other than the caster to end Enslave? Actually, can the caster even end Enslave, since the duration is permanent? I did make an assumption here, the verifying a slave was no longer under the effects of Enslave wouldn't he cost prohibitive.

While there is a risk someone is still Enslaved and will work against you... there's a risk with someone who was never Enslaved at all as well. The Enslaved can be questioned by the caster, and so you can weed out the slaves most likely to murder their new masters in their sleep (for example). The Enslaved may also be open to more mundane conditioning. The kind that carries over to the new master.
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Old 06-02-2021, 04:39 AM   #66
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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Here's where I may have goofed up: how hard is it for someone other than the caster to end Enslave? Actually, can the caster even end Enslave, since the duration is permanent? I did make an assumption here, the verifying a slave was no longer under the effects of Enslave wouldn't he cost prohibitive.
Enslave is not listed for Remove Curse (pM126), but it may be possible to negate it with Remove Enchantment (pM58), depending on the GM.


EDIT: Should this discussion be in another thread?
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:38 AM   #67
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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EDIT: Should this discussion be in another thread?
I've been reading 'Enslave' as 'Mind Control power modified to work something like the Enslave spell'.
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:38 AM   #68
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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Here's where I may have goofed up: how hard is it for someone other than the caster to end Enslave? Actually, can the caster even end Enslave, since the duration is permanent? I did make an assumption here, the verifying a slave was no longer under the effects of Enslave wouldn't he cost prohibitive.

While there is a risk someone is still Enslaved and will work against you... there's a risk with someone who was never Enslaved at all as well. The Enslaved can be questioned by the caster, and so you can weed out the slaves most likely to murder their new masters in their sleep (for example). The Enslaved may also be open to more mundane conditioning. The kind that carries over to the new master.
You seem to be working under the assumption that the caster of Enslave would never target the buyers of the Enslaved. If a mage is both skilled enough and have the resources to regularily Enslave people, it only makes sense for them to Enslave as many of the officials and/or ruling people in their area as they can. And you should not forget the spying ability the spell grants (the caster can at will observe through any Enslaved's eyes and ears) as a way to help set up a kidnapping.

As for how you can remove Enslave: Counterspell and Dispel Magic. Those are the spells to remove Permanent duration spells.

To link this to the topic of the Mind Control Advantage, the main reasons you should not expect similar situations are the scaling penality for multiple controlled entities and limited durations (which Enslave lacks). You basically need Independent and Extended Duration (Permanent) to have a similar situation. To more closely model Enslave you also need Telesend (Universal + Racial), Mind Reading (Sensory Only + Racial) and Mind Link. The Racial is Mind Controlled Only (I can't remember where I saw that interpretation). Overall this package costs 200+ points.

Last edited by WingedKagouti; 06-02-2021 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 06-02-2021, 05:48 AM   #69
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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You're working under the assumption that the caster of Enslave would never target the buyers of the Enslaved. If a mage is both skilled enough and have the resources to regularily Enslave people, it only makes sense for them to Enslave as many of the officials and/or ruling people in their area as they can.
Effectively, iPhones have a higher loyalty to Apple than to their users, so the situation is fairly analogous to that of a mage guild that sells Enslaved slaves to end-users.

I imagine that while thriller plots and paranoid people are very concerned with the possibility of mage guild espionage and covert action using their 'plants', in actual fact, most mages will simply grow indecently rich from selling Enslaved slaves to the buyers, ordering them to be loyal and good slaves, and then forgetting about them entirely.
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Old 06-02-2021, 06:17 AM   #70
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Mind Control

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Effectively, iPhones have a higher loyalty to Apple than to their users, so the situation is fairly analogous to that of a mage guild that sells Enslaved slaves to end-users.

I imagine that while thriller plots and paranoid people are very concerned with the possibility of mage guild espionage and covert action using their 'plants', in actual fact, most mages will simply grow indecently rich from selling Enslaved slaves to the buyers, ordering them to be loyal and good slaves, and then forgetting about them entirely.
It's easier not to be targeted by fearful rulers if you control the rulers with absolute certainty. The main chink in Enslave's ability to control everything is how easy it is to learn Dispel Magic: Counterspell (which only requires Magery 1) and 12 other spells. And it only costs 3 energy and takes 3 seconds to free one target with Dispel Magic (if you win the quick contest of skill).

The phone analogy is only apropriate on a very shallow surface level. Apple can't make their phones bring in the owners for reprogramming to complete loyalty to Apple. Even though Apple supporters do seem a bit cult like from the outside.
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