[Basic] Advantage of the Week: Animal / human / Plant / Spirit Empathy, Empath Talent

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Realistic people don't have Animal Empathy. Beastmaster has Animal Empathy (or should if Animal Empathy did what it should). Temple Grandin has Animal Friend.

[...]

Also, Animal Friend gives you a reaction bonus, so they'll probably just like you anyway.

I would have said that I have something very close to animal empathy (except that I never used Sex Appeal and Fast-Talk on them and don't even understand how it can even be possible) but, after reading your post, I have to admit that Animal friend could also be a good way to handle my "gift".

Remains the ability to feel the animal emotional state (which I do more quickly than other people around me) and the possible ability to feel supernatural things like possession (which isn't necessarily supernatural in itself: it could be interpreted as the ability to feel that something is really not normal with that animal - but it still supposes that supernatural like possessions do exist which is not at all proved in reality... and, until now, I have never felt anything like that).

And for Animal handling, no, it is not necessarily a matter of force. Some animal trainers use kindness, patience, "animal empathy", and have very good results too.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There is a mechanical sameness. All four of the Empathy traits:

• Give an IQ roll to know what the target is feeling (or it's general health for plants), whether it is possessed and so on.
• Override Indomitable.

There is no Sensitive level for the xxx Empathy traits and you don't need Empathy to use influence skills on people.

I've never liked the interaction between Empathy and Indomitable, but that's another matter.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

There is no Sensitive level for the xxx Empathy traits and you don't need Empathy to use influence skills on people.

If you're a member of the same empathic category. But think of it: in a setting where spirits and humans are mutually non-influencable, while humans need Spirit Empathy, spirits will need regular Empathy. (To do otherwise is to grant spirits Indomitable for free! And GURPS does not normally allow free lunches.)

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I've never liked the interaction between Empathy and Indomitable, but that's another matter.

Why? It seems on-topic.

[Otaku]

So, the idea of being able to adjust human influence skills to beasts doesn't strike me as a problem in and of itself. It strikes me as difficult, however. Stepping back from Animal Empathy for a moment, let us discuss a few things (it will really help me out!).

1. Earlier it was mentioned that Intimidation can be used on animals without Animal Empathy; forgive me if I'm just overlooking it, but where are the rules for that? I would hope there would be sufficient penalties, as animals are mostly going to be going by tone of voice, gestures, etc. and not all things "translate" the same.
2. Some of the other skills that don't make sense, mostly don't make sense because you can't use them "that way" for humans... but maybe you should be able to?

So without me making some suggestion that dramatically changes the rules, just allowing Sex Appeal to be used to convince the target you are willing to help them get what it is they are after as opposed to convincing the target that you are what they are after seems workable, perhaps even appropriate. Using Sex Appeal this way on humans isn't necessary, or rather might fall under one of the other Influence Skills, but as it is a somewhat specialized usage of each Skill that real world experience and/or fiction (or even just contemplation) can establish a firm link between, I believe it makes sense to allow "Sex Appeal" to cover "appealing to one's desire for sex or that which is related to sex."

So (whether true or not), convincing your target you know the best places to find attractive [insert object of affection] that is also looking for sex would be an IQ based Sex Appeal roll. This could be anything from knowing where "the" club for singles is in this area or that you're "the wingman" that will help seal the deal to where to find (legal or illegal) prostitution to a store with an expansive selection of pornography or other sexual paraphernalia. Again, various other skills cover this but this is lumping all the related uses of those skills in with Sex Appeal because of the shared knowledge of knowing how to "appeal".

All of this makes exploiting a beasts' sexual instincts/desires via a Sex Appeal roll (where you are not what the animal in question is looking for in a mate) in line with anything else. You may not actually be providing it a mate, but knowing what the animal will be looking for and using that to influence them. Being an animal means you shouldn't be able to be all "Perform this task for me and I'll find you a mate." (unless the animal in question has already been condition to expect this, in which case you didn't need a Sex Appeal roll anyway). Making sure your pheromone laced decoy doe is the most "attractive" one to the buck you're hoping to bag? That might call for an IQ based Sex Appeal roll while you're preparing said decoy doe.

Otherwise, I am starting to think that using Influence Skills on Animals doesn't call for an Advantage, but alternative Specialties and/or Techniques, probably with Animal Handling as a prerequisite. I've been around (or had my own) cats long enough that I might barely have a point into Animal Handling (Cats). If we think of the various Influence Skills as actually requiring a specialization for the target along the lines of family or genus or species, then you can think of Fast-Talk as Fast-Talk (Human) and Fast-Talk (Cat) is how you convince your kitty to get into the pet carrier to go to the vet.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

There is no Sensitive level for the xxx Empathy traits and you don't need Empathy to use influence skills on people.
.

You do if you're not people.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Remains the ability to feel the animal emotional state (which I do more quickly than other people around me) and the possible ability to feel supernatural things like possession

Literally feeling the feelings of other creatures is a spooky telepathic ability. I'm not going to tell you that you don't have supernatural powers, because that's rude, but I'm going to tell you I don't believe in them myself.

Identifying animal mental and emotional states and predicting behavior from observation isn't a supernatural sense. That's just a Per-based skill roll; probably any of Animal Handling, Veterinary, Naturalist, or Biology.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Earlier it was mentioned that Intimidation can be used on animals without Animal Empathy; forgive me if I'm just overlooking it, but where are the rules for that?[

Social Engineering p. 31

I would hope there would be sufficient penalties, as animals are mostly going to be going by tone of voice, gestures, etc. and not all things "translate" the same.

-5 if you lack any animal empathy.

Some of the other skills that don't make sense, mostly don't make sense because you can't use them "that way" for humans... but maybe you should be able to?

I asked PK that back in that other thread, and he said very unequivocally that you cannot.

Besides it's really problematical, I think if you go down the road of trying to figure out what each Influence skill means on animals and then working it backwards to people. For example Streetwise apparently works on "outsider animals" that don't have normal socialization. Working it backwards does that mean you ought to be able to use Streetwise on a child with severe behavior disorders but no history of criminal activity?


Also Savior-Faire is especially problematic:
What does Savior Faire (High Society) do? Let you influence animals that are high in the social hierarchy?

Does Savior Faire (Dojo) let you influence animals that have complex intraspecies aggression? Does it let you influence animals that have marital arts based on them (praying mantises, boars, whatever)?

What does Savior Faire (Military) do with animals? Let you influence military working animals? Let you influence regimented animals like eusocial insects?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Literally feeling the feelings of other creatures is a spooky telepathic ability. I'm not going to tell you that you don't have supernatural powers, because that's rude, but I'm going to tell you I don't believe in them myself.

I think that your understanding of what is empathy (and animal empathy) is a bit exaggerated... And that it is what makes you believe that it can't exist in reality.

Feeling the feeling of others is not necessarily a telepathic ability. It may just be the perception of micro-signals, perception which is more quick, deep and unconscious for an "empath" than for a "non-empath". So an "empath" don't really feel the other's emotion exactly when it appears (which would be a telepathic ability, indeed), but he perceives it far before it becomes obvious for everyone around.

When someone is very sad, for instance, everybody will eventually notice that he is sad and feel bit sad for him. This is ordinary empathy, an ability shared by all human beings: the ability to understand others' emotions, not only with logic and reason (like robots), but with what we usually call "the heart". For an empath, it is just quicker and much stronger than that. Without having conscious of the micro-signals, an empath almost immediately notice that sadness and feel it in response. Exactly like a baby who hears another baby crying begins to cry too.

That's what real empathy is, in my humble opinion, and it is only that. It is not at all telepathic but an emotional contagion, afterwards... Just without passing through consciousness and reason, which makes it more immediate.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Identifying animal mental and emotional states and predicting behavior from observation isn't a supernatural sense. That's just a Per-based skill roll; probably any of Animal Handling, Veterinary, Naturalist, or Biology.

Not really, because this manner of understanding animal emotional states is conscious and requires some time and reflexion. Animal empathy is more quick and unconscious. It doesn't at all requires theory nor training.

Maybe empaths are just people who still have the baby reflex!

;-)

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I asked PK that back in that other thread, and he said very unequivocally that you cannot.

Besides it's really problematical, I think if you go down the road of trying to figure out what each Influence skill means on animals and then working it backwards to people. For example Streetwise apparently works on "outsider animals" that don't have normal socialization. Working it backwards does that mean you ought to be able to use Streetwise on a child with severe behavior disorders but no history of criminal activity?


Also Savior-Faire is especially problematic:
What does Savior Faire (High Society) do? Let you influence animals that are high in the social hierarchy?

Does Savior Faire (Dojo) let you influence animals that have complex intraspecies aggression? Does it let you influence animals that have marital arts based on them (praying mantises, boars, whatever)?

What does Savior Faire (Military) do with animals? Let you influence military working animals? Let you influence regimented animals like eusocial insects?

To be clear I was addressing two related but separate ideas:

1) That perhaps some Influence Skills should be able to be used less directly. This concept was intended to require minimal, if any, changes to the RAW.

2) That Influence Skills should probably be viewed as having Specializations based on biological divisions, in addition to social ones, so that you can learn how to use them on animals instead of humans, allowing for the character that easily interacts with animals (including in one limited capacity) while not being as good with humans (cross specialization defaults might still make said character better with humans than the regular defaults indicate).

Originally Posted by Otaku

Otherwise, I am starting to think that using Influence Skills on Animals doesn't call for an Advantage, but alternative Specialties and/or Techniques, probably with Animal Handling as a prerequisite. I've been around (or had my own) cats long enough that I might barely have a point into Animal Handling (Cats). If we think of the various Influence Skills as actually requiring a specialization for the target along the lines of family or genus or species, then you can think of Fast-Talk as Fast-Talk (Human) and Fast-Talk (Cat) is how you convince your kitty to get into the pet carrier to go to the vet.

This might actually be to replace Animal Empathy as it normally is used. The character with Animal Handling and/or the correct Influence Skills for that particular division of animal life just seems to have a special rapport because s/he/it has learned how to read the animals better plus how to communicate in terms the animals better understand.

Just like in real life, using the wrong Influence Skill won't get you very far. Savoir-Faire, for example, already has Specializations. This approach just makes it clear there's a second one that has usually gone without saying: it isn't just Savoir-Faire (Military) but Savoir-Faire (Human Military). If a particular animal "naturally" forms a military-style hierarchy, then there would be the appropriate default to figure out how to adjust one to the other, and leaving Animal Empathy how it is by RAW, it allows you to ignore that penalty because you intuitively understand those differences. The tone of the campaign would adjust what you could get out of it. Harshly realistic games probably wouldn't allow Animal Empathy, but if they do then you're pretty much rolling not to get attacked. In a silly game, you might be able to roll to somehow be viewed as the equivalent of ambassadors. In a cinematic setting somewhere in between you might be able to avoid both getting attacked while "siccing" the creatures on your enemies.

On the other hand, Savoir-Faire (Dojo) won't help unless the animals in question somehow behave in a manner that replicates dojo life; just because a style is patterned after how they attack, doesn't mean it was patterned after how they interact socially. Well, maybe in a "silly" setting. Fast Talk (Insert Animal) will mostly be about knowing what sounds/gestures elicit what responses. More intelligent animals may know a few words. With some cats, you can say "We are going to the vet." and no matter how much that cat actually wouldn't want to go, as long as you said it with the right tone and mannerisms, it will get into the pet carrier. Others actually have figured out that "vet" relates to "that place I don't want to go!", and even if the tone and manner is correct, they aren't coming. Similarly lying and saying "We are going to find you a mate." won't matter unless they associate one of those words with actual mating; instead its tone and manner.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Not really, because this manner of understanding animal emotional states is conscious and requires some time and reflexion. Animal empathy is more quick and unconscious. It doesn't at all requires theory nor training.

Maybe empaths are just people who still have the baby reflex!

;-)

This is also why I'd prefer we had a base "Empathy" trait and to get Animal Empathy, Plant Empathy, Spirit Empathy and any less generic options that might be appropriate to a specific setting via Modifiers... as well as perhaps allowing a Xenoempathy that seems to work on everything, for blatantly supernatural characters (whether in serious or silly settings). Also please note that the exact mechanics for this "base Empathy" may deviate from the current Empathy Advantage. I am still trying to wrap my head around it as, a bit like when I tried to argue for separating certain Skill bonuses from certain other game effects, I don't know if they can or cannot be made to make sense "apart".

[Flyndaran]

It's not just micro-body language that allows real world empathy. It's also over all macro-body language, vocalizations, and actions.

I've had to train up from incompetence to what most posters here have as default.
It isn't telepathy, or pseudo-telepathic micro-stuff that only "sensitives" can pick up. It's a skill that most social animals have as species specific instinct.

Instinctive skills are good for their purpose, but they often lead to misinterpretations when generalized.