Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2015, 08:45 AM   #21
Sword-dancer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Germany
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
They didn't wear full plate as I think I said; it just wasn't fashionable at the time. .
AFAIK they didn´t use Plate at this time, the varamgian Guard got equipped with scale Body armor , not plate.
That means those who didn´t bring maille with them from home.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
Just the continent. We've always left the rest of the world to YOU :-)
Sword-dancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2015, 09:58 AM   #22
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
There's a vast difference between cast bronze plates and hammered iron ones. Plate defenses did exist in the period - greaves are listed alongside chausses in documents from his Empire.
Just keep in mind that having a Latin word for "leg defense" and a Romance word in use at the same time does not mean that there were two types of armour with two different names. Understanding Carolingian arms and armour is hard because they did not give them to the gods, bury them with the dead, or produce so many that some scraps were buried rather than being recycled, and the art and literature which survive are closely modeled on Roman models. The Osprey Carolingian Cavalry by David Niccole is pretty good and leans towards "several types of kit were in use" rather than "it was all a handful of types of plate helmet, mail shirt, and mail legging."
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2015, 11:04 AM   #23
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Did they use crossbows? It seems wrong for the era, but I don't know. Does anyone know?
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2015, 11:10 AM   #24
Sword-dancer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Germany
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Not AFAIK, i believe they don´t, it would be unprpable IMPOV but the Romans used a Kind of Crossbow
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
Just the continent. We've always left the rest of the world to YOU :-)

Last edited by Sword-dancer; 01-20-2015 at 02:00 PM.
Sword-dancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2015, 01:12 PM   #25
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
They didn't wear full plate as I think I said; it just wasn't fashionable at the time. Greeks were wearing breastplates in the time of Socrates. It is a fairly simple concept. If nothing else he could have ordered it, and a local smithy produced it-better then what a Frankish smith could have. Or he could have bought an antique. Constantinople was mentioned not least because it is a center of artisanship. Or it could have been bought from a merchant in transit. And in any case, saying they "didn't" wear it is hyperbole. A warrior wore what he favored. It would be more accurate to say they generally favored scale.

There are lots of ways to imagine such a thing happening. Full plate in Medieval style is what is not available. Not partial plate.
There is no hypebole here. Eastern Romans in the 8th century wore either mail, or some form of lamelar armor. Not breastplates. Given that they were fighting other mailed cavalrymen on a regular basis, Maces were in widespread use(liberally daubed the "breaker of helmets" and "shatter of shields"), there's no reason to suspect that they were avoiding plate armor because it wasn't "fashionable".

Sure, he could have had someone make him a breastplate of bronze. He could also have them make him a Katana. But there's no plausible, historic reason to do so.

Mail, Scale and Lamellar are the order of the day.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2015, 07:29 PM   #26
Railstar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Did they use crossbows? It seems wrong for the era, but I don't know. Does anyone know?
Bernard S. Bachrach, Early Crolingian Warfare: Prelude to Empire, p. 112, suggests that crossbows were in continuous use, but doesn’t really give clear or helpful elaboration.

The Age of Charlemagne (an Osprey book) on page 31 seems to suggest there’s no evidence of crossbows used in war (but yes used in hunting?).

Weapons and warfare (.com – not providing the link because of pop-ups) suggests crossbows were replacing other weapons in the twelfth century, or at least were only becoming dominant then.

Wikipedia page on medieval hunting says the crossbow was introduced at the time of the First Crusade, although didn’t become a common hunting weapon until the 1400s (but note there is no footnote or source provided for that statement).

Ancient Worlds website mentions the Carolingians of your period using “an early form of the crossbow.” But does not elaborate.

Overall, I would allow, at most, hand-drawn crossbows. No levers, no winches, no other forms of mechanical assistance.
Railstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2015, 03:23 AM   #27
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
What kind of Code of Honor would the Carolingians use? It's too early for Chivalric. Soldier's? Or some new one?

I think I'll base the Christian Code of Honor on upholding the seven cardinal virtues in order to live a more Christ-like life.
IIRC this was a serious cause of values dissonance in the period - how to integrate the Christian model of virtue with that of a warrior culture ... a Christ-like man is of limited use in a shield wall.
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2015, 05:07 AM   #28
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Well, the Seven virtues are (from Wikipedia): Charity, Chastity, Diligence, Humility, Kindness and Temperance. Trying to be all of these is worth -15 points, at least. The word trying is key here, though - Christianity accepts that man is not perfect and will stumble and fall.

Book Magic for the Bible: Banish, Calm the Winds, Chaperone, Command the Waves, Curse Sanctum, Dose, Fertility, Lay to Rest, Succor, Ward, Weatherworking

Exorcism is handled by the skill. Calm the Winds and Command the Waves are taken from Marc 4:35-41, Fertility and Weatherworking are essential for a farming community. Dose and Succor are there to provide the party with healing (and healing is the major miracle in the Bible). Chaperone, Curse Sanctum are manifestations of "protect us from evil" from the Lord's Prayer.
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius

Last edited by Anders; 01-21-2015 at 06:00 AM.
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2015, 06:02 AM   #29
Peter Knutsen
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
IIRC this was a serious cause of values dissonance in the period - how to integrate the Christian model of virtue with that of a warrior culture ... a Christ-like man is of limited use in a shield wall.
But with a worldbuilder who understands both mindsets well, that's not a problem - it's an opportunity!
Peter Knutsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2015, 10:10 AM   #30
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
But with a worldbuilder who understands both mindsets well, that's not a problem - it's an opportunity!
Of course - it's a problem for the players and PCs, but for anyone being creative conflict is always an opportunity.
Some of Bernard Cornwell's works explore this sort of theme quite well - his Warlord (Arthur) Cycle in a partially Christianised England facing Saxon invasion and the Saxon Cycle in a Christianised England struggling with the pagan Norse.
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
campaign advice, history

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.