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Old 07-11-2016, 01:11 PM   #31
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

One other thing, as you may not have noticed not being a major 4th ed-er; Ultra Tech is the weakest most rushed book second only to the copy paste that is Magic. I think the way it set up Cybernetics is wonky and easily abused compared to nearly all other R.A.W. book advantage set examples.
Kromm's suggestion of what the -70% includes and how to decrease the problem is great. But it doesn't say how to increase it and stay balanced.
I like magic-tech settings sometimes, but I don't think just slapping a +10% Magical on it is balanced.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:33 PM   #32
Frost
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I see no reason for security updates. It's not like I'm going to download a song and have my heart beat out the rhythm.
When I first read this I would have agreed with you but the more I think about it the less absurd it sounds. While it is true that you don't expect it do that much (well other than keep you alive) but you do expect it to do it in a demanding environment. It strikes me that this demands a fairly significant capacity for adjustment, particularly if the implant is intended to give its recipient a full healthy life as opposed to simply keeping them alive.

The point is that the same mechanisms could be coopted and used to kill the recipient. Now this isn't a particularly likely scenario (it will probably occur in fiction more often than fact) but it may still be plauseable enough that the manufacturers will take precautions. This will be especially true where cybernetics use off the shelf components and software giving would be assassins a library of preexisting exploits developed in other implementations.
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:18 PM   #33
hal
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

The security issues for "hearts" also underscores other issues such as reliability. For example, someone with cyber eyes suddenly losing their eyesight while driving, are likely going to be placed under certain restrictions where driving is concerned and accident liability comes into play. Meta gaming aside, for cybernetic equipment to fail only during times of stress begs the question "why or how does the stress of the user affect a device?"

In the end, if cybernetics is that unreliable, chances are, the product will be taken offline rather than risk court issues
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:52 PM   #34
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

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Originally Posted by Frost View Post
When I first read this I would have agreed with you but the more I think about it the less absurd it sounds. While it is true that you don't expect it do that much (well other than keep you alive) but you do expect it to do it in a demanding environment. It strikes me that this demands a fairly significant capacity for adjustment, particularly if the implant is intended to give its recipient a full healthy life as opposed to simply keeping them alive.

The point is that the same mechanisms could be coopted and used to kill the recipient. Now this isn't a particularly likely scenario (it will probably occur in fiction more often than fact) but it may still be plauseable enough that the manufacturers will take precautions. This will be especially true where cybernetics use off the shelf components and software giving would be assassins a library of preexisting exploits developed in other implementations.
Except it would be absurdly dumb to allow any form of internet or radio wave access to organs. Maybe a physical port through which updates may work, not that I even get what amazing new programming could be developed since the implant. It's a heart, it beats, amazing but not that complex.
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:48 PM   #35
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

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Except it would be absurdly dumb to allow any form of internet or radio wave access to organs. Maybe a physical port through which updates may work, not that I even get what amazing new programming could be developed since the implant. It's a heart, it beats, amazing but not that complex.
Its not so much that anything new or radical is going to come along but that the human body is a gods awful environment for any electronic or especially mechanical device to try and operate in particularly where there is some sort of underlying health condition. I don't think that it is an unreasonable assumption that something like an artificial heart will require periodic adjustments to maintain its full effectiveness.

Yes it would be downright dumb to have direct internet access but as long as the adjustments are needed there will be some sort of two way access to the system from the outside world. Probably given the need to protect the patient an RF micro communicator operating in a very short range mode. Adjustments are likely to be made either face to face using some sort of local terminal or over a temporary secure connection if and where telemedicine is common. Despite this there will be risks that need addressing involving either man in the middle attacks on the various connections, tampering with the controlling system or (admittedly the least likely) devices used to mimic an appropriate control system.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:02 PM   #36
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Maybe first generation artificial hearts. But it is the simplest organ in the body. It's a pump. A highly evolved long lasting pump, but still nothing more than a pump. It adjusts its rate when signaled to by the nervous and edocrine systems, but it's not something prone to needing radical change over months or years as would necessitate an added complexity and damage vector like radio access.
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:24 PM   #37
hal
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

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Originally Posted by thulben View Post
Hmm… I'd play it slightly differently (which means at least one of us is having the wrong kind of fun). Specifically, as the GM, you should set the HT of the device at a level that suggests its quality/proneness to malfunction. Maybe the base model has HT 10 but the ruggedized version has CF +0.5 and HT 12! Want a cheaper version? You can have one that's CF -0.25 but HT 8. Hope you like getting it fixed!
For what it is worth, after months later, I stumbled over the rules in GURPS ULTRATECH for 4e, and found that the rules specify that the HT of any cybernetic item is indeed, 10, unless ruggedized...

Nice call. :)
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:52 PM   #38
hal
 
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Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

For those who are interested...

Currently, I'm running a campaign via FG2 for a friend of mine over the net. The year is 2047, and the TL is (Classic GURPS definition here, NOT 4e) Mature 8, edging into TL 9 (which seems to my way of thinking, be about the same in both GURPS 3e and 4e for the most part).

Changes we made to the system for use with the game (ie house rules):

Character point costs for having "devices" excludes the maintenance interval. Part of the problem I have with 4e is that they didn't specify much information for what batteries contain within - nor the additional cost for maintenance in monetary value. Got to a medical facility today, and you get hit with office visit costs in addition to the specialist's time. This would not likely be any different, something that GURPS 4e seems to have failed to take into account with the pricing of the Maintenance disadvantage. This factor ups the cost of living by a factor...

In any event:

Next item:

We liked the rules for "Fast" processor and "Genius" processor costs for computers in GURPS ULTRATECH for 4e, and have kept those options as is for the campaign. Neural Net computers are handled differently:

Neural Net's evolve over time. We never liked the fact that despite the fact that in ULTRATECH (either version), the initial IQ was dependent on the hardware, and that IQ could be improved above and beyond via character points, we hit upon the following solution:

Any software that handle's skills, is treated as a complexity 3 item, and is loosely modeled upon the EXPERT SOFTWARE concepts in CLASSIC ULTRATECH. At CLASSIC TL 8, easy and average skills have a ceiling of skill 12 for anyone without a skill - using the expert software instead. Each tech level higher than 8, and the skill gains a +1 bonus to its ceiling. If you want to have a higher ceiling, each +1 bonus requires that the software's complexity be bumped up by 1.

The IQ of the robot is calculated as given in Classic_Robots such that a computer with a complexity 4 computer, has an IQ of 7 initially, or an IQ of 8 with a Neural Net component. No longer does a computer gain the "eidetic memory" advantage as given in CLASSIC_ROBOTS, but follows this progression instead:

IQ remains unchangeable due to hardware constraints. Skills are upgraded for Neural Net (Abbrev as NN from now on) computers are upgraded like they would for a normal character. Once the "limit" has been reached of the software itself, the skill can no longer be improved.

As for memories that the NN brain accumulates? Just as a human being has long term memory and short term memory, so too does the NN Brain. When memory is reaching a point where it is reaching maximum capacity, the NN Brain has to decide which memories it wants to keep, which memories it wants to alter (High resolution dropped to low resolution or packed to cut on memory use size) and which ones it wants to delete entirely after backing up onto external media. Because the NN Brain is now no longer the same as when it was first created - the back up memory is no longer functional for any other NN Brain - as the unit is literally wired differently than any other NN Brain. VIDEO and AUDIO files however, can be exported in a standard format, and usable anywhere that format can be read.

For example (all in 3e stats):

A minicomputer, has a complexity of 3 at TL 8 (TL-5). Give it the "Fast" technology, and it goes up to 4. Its IQ without the Neural Net Brain option - is 7. With NN Option, it goes to 8. The buyer of that robotic NN Brain, purchases a housekeeping program for the robot. Since this robot hasn't had the program installed, its skill with HOUSEKEEPING from the start is treated as though the Robot has 1 point in the skill with an IQ of 8. Our NN Brain has a skill of 8 in Housekeeping now. The purchaser of the robot can either have someone or something teach our new robot's skill from a level of 8 to a 9, from 9 to a 10, from 10 to an 11, or from an 11 to 12, but the robot will NEVER be able to improve from the 12 to anything higher. Had the owner purchased a complexity 4 version of the skill, then the robot could have learned the housekeeping skill to a level of 13.

Later on, next technology level 9, that same computer would become a complexity 5 computer. The skill program would have a baseline of 13 (the initial 12 plus 1). Taking it up to a complexity 4 level means that the robot's upper limit is now 14. Taking the program to a complexity 5 means it can take it to a limit of 15.

Just sharing this with others who might want to experiment and use it for their own campaigns. The idea is - to have something that has some firm limits on robots that doesn't use the meta concept of Character points, but has some internal self-consistency with "realism".
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Old 03-25-2017, 01:03 PM   #39
hal
 
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Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

Something I want to share in case there are people who still run cyberpunk campaigns and like to have additional support material for their campaign environment...

There is a group of people who enjoy still, Cyberpunk 2020 - and create material for use with the genre and the game system. While in chat at another forum, one individual in question, put together a City Kit, that permits the GM to quickly generate building heights (floors) along with building inhabitants as far as business types go. The nice thing is, it is constructed for use with 1d10 random rolling or 1d100.

It is available at RPGNOW with a "pay what you want" option. With 48 pages stuffed with things a gm might want, it is worth what ever you decide it is worth. Things like "call for backup" and determining what the person calling for back up gets (assuming the caller is in law enforcement of some kind), is nice - right down to how many minutes it takes for the help to arrive on the scene. A GM who builds drone robots for their campaign, would find it nice to know that drones are included in encounters. ;)

In all - I found it worth the money I paid for it. Now if it only had "Street names" that I could use in a pinch, it would be complete. Teasing aside, I'm willing to bet that this is something that Cyberpunk GM's might be glad exists.

The name of the item in question is:



The Holistic City Kit For Cyberpunk Games by Augmented Reality

Last edited by hal; 03-25-2017 at 01:06 PM. Reason: forgot to mention the name darn it!
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