Improving basic attributes cheaply: ST!, DX!, IQ!, HT!

[the_seeker]

Originally Posted by warmachine

I, too, was inspired to change the Basic Speed formula by the holy musings of Kromm (praise be to him), also using BS = (DX+Per)/4. However, I make Per and Will cost 15 and 10 per level respectively. That is, Per! cost per level. Also, BM is DX/2, which is an alternative path to enlightenment considered by Kromm.

I'm sufficiently curious about alternative formulae for BS and BM that I intend to start a new thread in an hour or so (after my evening meal). I don't expect to convert or be converted, but I would derive pleasure and useful information from participating in the discussion.

And on a completely different topic... Reading, eh? I was just in Reading the other day at a place called the Purple Turtle Bar. I'm leaving in the morning for two weeks in London. Perhaps we can meet for a pint at some point between now and the end of the month. Always happy to meet a fellow GURPS enthusiast.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by the_seeker

RL IQ might not, but as I understand it, GURPS IQ does (or at least can be argued to) for the reason I gave since GURPS IQ /= RL IQ. But the point about making animals ridiculously slow to react is well made. Will definitely re-think it.

EDIT:
Ahh hah. I've found the source of my absurd error. I was misremembering and thereby totally misapplying Kromm's off-hand suggestion in this post. >>> http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...27&postcount=3

Yep, like he said, Perception can make sense to figure into Basic Speed, but GURPS IQ has no relation with reaction speed.

Separating out Will and Per from IQ also makes loads of sense, which is why I don't allow it as a free increase when someone raises IQ!.

After all, there's no reason why you'd allow someone to become stronger Willed and more Perceptive just because they've increased their breadth of knowledge (IQ!).

Same thing with Basic Speed, you're not getting any free Basic Speed increase out of me just because you've improved your general hand eye coordination (DX!).

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The OP didn't ask whether it should be allowed. Just whether it was consistent with the RAW. It isn't. Buying up extra HP or Willpower is consistent with the RAW. Buying up IQ and DX without the secondary characteristics isn't.

Now why in the world would it not be consistent with the RAW to spend 10 points to raise IQ!?

Nothing says you can't spend [10] but must instead spend 10+5+5 and must always raise IQ!+W+P...

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Now why in the world would it not be consistent with the RAW to spend 10 points to raise IQ!?

Nothing says you can't spend [10] but must instead spend 10+5+5 and must always raise IQ!+W+P...

Actually, it seems rather less realistic that you would always get more perceptive and strong-willed by virtue of improving your intellectual skills.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Now why in the world would it not be consistent with the RAW to spend 10 points to raise IQ!?

Nothing says you can't spend [10] but must instead spend 10+5+5 and must always raise IQ!+W+P...

THe only caveat I put on that is the 'within 30%' guidline. Same fro ST/HP, HT/FP etc.

But now that you mention it, I may consider opening up those params a little.

Nymdok

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Now why in the world would it not be consistent with the RAW to spend 10 points to raise IQ!?

Under the rules, there's no such thing as IQ!. To lower your will and perception below your IQ is a disadvantage. Not only does it count against your disadvantage limit if there is one, but disadvantages acquired in play do not get you points. What the rules say is that you can raise characteristics or secondary characteristics. They don't say that you can raise characteristics while taking extra disadvantages to offset the price.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The OP didn't ask whether it should be allowed. Just whether it was consistent with the RAW. It isn't. Buying up extra HP or Willpower is consistent with the RAW. Buying up IQ and DX without the secondary characteristics isn't.

Well, I'd argue that not as "doing this is inconsistent with the rules", but "interpreting the rules as forbidding it makes the rules inconsistent with themselves", at least if you can buy advantages with limitations in play. But I suppose that's a matter of taste. Consistent is after all a term that has no rules technical meaning, so it's relevance to rules lawyer arguments is pretty minimal either way.

I don't know that there aren't cases I could be talked into letting you do it, but since I do require stuff you purchase in play to come with a story of how you acquired it that *makes sense* in the context of your character, I don't expect it to come up. It is after all pretty much a pure rules hack. How could you possibly practice just the skills increasing part of DX anyway?

I guess for IQ! increasing just your general knowledge seems a little more plausible Not unexpectedly really. I've always thought IQ is too overloaded a stat, goes back to being tacked on to Man to Man more or less as an afterthought.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by malloyd

How could you possibly practice just the skills increasing part of DX anyway?

Well, with DX!, you're basically just selling back the 0.25 of Basic Speed. I can imagine any number of training regimens that would make your movements more precise without increasing the speed of your reflexes. Of course, those same quick reflexes are also part of at least melee weapon skills (particularly blocks and parries, but also the ability to make deceptive attacks based on speed, etc.), if not ranged ones, so rather than allow DX! as such, I'd be more likely to allow purchase of limited DX as Aim. Maybe -40%, so it was priced between levels of Talent cost and about the same as a Wildcard skill.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Under the rules, there's no such thing as IQ!. To lower your will and perception below your IQ is a disadvantage.

No, that's a really silly way of looking at things.

You're saying that if you have someone with IQ 10 vs someone with IQ! 11 and Per 10 and Will 10 that somehow the person with IQ! 11 has some sort of disadvantage in comparison to the person with IQ 10?, that makes no sense.

Basically the whole tying Will & Per to IQ is just a bad legacy mechanic which doesn't really add anything to the system.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Not only does it count against your disadvantage limit if there is one, but disadvantages acquired in play do not get you points. What the rules say is that you can raise characteristics or secondary characteristics. They don't say that you can raise characteristics while taking extra disadvantages to offset the price.

Disadvantage limits cease to exist once play starts, at that point what happens, happens.

Now whether or not you run a more realistic campaign where people can increase IQ! when they increase their general knowledge or if you run a more silly campaign where people have to raise their Will and Per when they raise their general knowledge is up to you, but I tend not to run silly campaigns myself.

Originally Posted by malloyd

It is after all pretty much a pure rules hack. How could you possibly practice just the skills increasing part of DX anyway?

The skills increase just DX!, the Basic Speed portion is just tacked onto DX for no good reason. It's not about it being a rules hack, it's about thing getting tacked onto stats just because of legacy reasons.

Originally Posted by malloyd

I guess for IQ! increasing just your general knowledge seems a little more plausible Not unexpectedly really. I've always thought IQ is too overloaded a stat, goes back to being tacked on to Man to Man more or less as an afterthought.

Not just that, but having just 4 stats while keeping things simple can mean too many things get tacked onto them which shouldn't get tacked onto them.

[Brandy]

Ze, I'm confused. Are you arguing that it is the way the rules read or that it is realistic?