GURPS Shadowgun [Brainstorm]

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The Winchester 1866 is available and makes all Spencers obsolete junk. This is even though the '66 fired the inadequate (for a rifle or carbine) .44 Henry.

At double the magazine capacity, the Henry and '66 were also perfectly serviceable out to 200 yards.

If he holds out to 1877, he gets the 28-shot New Model Evans repeating rifle.

[AlexanderHowl]

Of course, my conception of Shadowgun is Shadowrun set in the Old West, which means dragons, magic, metahumans, steampunk, and the shattered remnants of Western power. It would actually be a more horrific setting than the default Shadowrun setting because technology would be playing catch up with magic, with certain disciplines becoming completely stagnant. After all, why go to a Western doctor for weeks of questionable treatment when you can go to the local Native American medicine man to be cured in a few minutes?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

After all, why go to a Western doctor for weeks of questionable treatment when you can go to the local Native American medicine man to be cured in a few minutes?

Why should the medicine man help anyone not in his tribe or allied to it?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Of course, my conception of Shadowgun is Shadowrun set in the Old West, which means dragons, magic, metahumans, steampunk, and the shattered remnants of Western power. It would actually be a more horrific setting than the default Shadowrun setting because technology would be playing catch up with magic, with certain disciplines becoming completely stagnant. After all, why go to a Western doctor for weeks of questionable treatment when you can go to the local Native American medicine man to be cured in a few minutes?

Originally Posted by copeab

Why should the medicine man help anyone not in his tribe or allied to it?

The concept of 'Native American' seems out of place in a 19th century world. It's a 20th century political construct that hasn't emerged in that world yet.

It's very contrary to actual anthropology, history, linguistics, politics and sociology to pretend that all indigenous people are some kind of monolithic bloc. Just because a century later people would artificially create a concept of 'Native American' ethnicity, that doesn't mean that a rich Cree trader in Quebec or a prosperous Cherokee slave owner in Georgia would necessarily turn on their neighbors and trade partners to take the part of distant, unknown people with whom they share neither language nor culture.

In fact, the idea that different families, clans, tribes or nations with nothing in common would all instinctively bond together under an ethnic umbrella of 'Native American Nations' is a very racist idea. I'm not against featuring racism in my games but only when it's a reflection of real-world ugliness in some ways. I don't see a need to import racist ideas from other games when doing so would go against historical evidence.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Path/Book Magic is much slower than RPM,

??? One of us is very confused, or we may be talking past each other.

PBM with PBAdept is, to the best of my knowledge, faster than standard RPM with RAdept. Energy Accumulating PBM is faster because there's mostly less energy cost to accumulate, and Effect Shaping PBM is faster (again, assuming the caster has PBAdept) due to not needing to accumulate energy. I do not understand why you would think otherwise. To be fair, I do not have the issue that describes Effect Shaping RPM, so that might be as fast as Effect Shaping PBM.

The time it takes charms to activate depends on the GM, and so isn't relevant. When it come to speed, I am primarily focused on casting in the field anyway, not preparing charms or hanging spells in advance.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

and it is quite difficult to do direct damage.

With standard PBM this is true, but only if the GM and players don't try to create new rituals - which they'd probably need to anyway, depending on how close to Shadowrun's magic system the GM wants the Shadowngun magic system to be. The variant that I considered for a Shadowrun type system was to use the SR spell categories and related skills as Paths (so, Path of Combat, Path of Detection, Path of Health, Path of Illusion, Path of Manipulation, and probably Path of Conjuring and Path of Enchanting). Shadowrun Physical Adepts would either use Magic As Powers, or a (very) different style of PBM, and Metamagic would probably be a Path skill with extra prerequisites.

I do still think that the standard spell system would be closer to the Shadowrun system with a little adaptation, but it depends on how the GM wants to go about it.

[AlexanderHowl]

Path Adept only reduces the time for Energy Accumulation for the first gathering roll only (Thaumatology, p. 135). When it comes to damage, RPM deal 3d burning damage for +0 energy, while Path/Book Magic requires either -8 skill or +8 energy for the same level of damage (12d burning damage is +12 energy for RPM while it is -44 skill or +44 energy for Path/Book Magic). Path/Book Magic is also sharply limited to a maximum energy of skill+5 (or a maximum bonus of +15), while RPM has no limits beyond good sense. Finally, RPM grants conditional spells, which provides a massive bonus over Path/Book Magic.

For example, a Ritual Adept with Magery 4 and Thaumatology-16 could maintain 20 conditional spells. Beyond that, they can have as many ongoing spells attached to them as they wish, allowing a properly prepared RPM magician to have a few dozen spells assisting them. Path/Book Magic is much less flexible, as it does not have conditional spells, just ongoing effects.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Path Adept only reduces the time for Energy Accumulation for the first gathering roll only (Thaumatology, p. 135).

Unless of course you take a second level of Path/Book Adept (Time). I don't have a cite, but I do recall that being used before GURPS Monser Hunters came out. That also only applies to Energy Accumulating magic, not Effect Shaping. So no, RPM still isn't faster.


OK, I think I see what the problem is, and I'm probably as much to blame as you are: RPM is a worked example of Path/Book Magic. You're assuming that I'm suggesting using the basic PBM worked example straight from GURPS Thaumatology without modifications for Shadowgun, which I'm not, but clearly I was being too vague on that. Simply removing some limits and making other small modifications to PBM to fit the setting would work fine, and it would be easier than trying to change RPM to fit the setting, since PBM as written is pretty clearly a framework to build the system from, whereas RPM is a fully formed system based on it (and also based on Syntactic Magic to a degree, and perhaps other things).

EDIT: Might as well mention this as well: Conditional Rituals is one of the entries on Thaumatology p138.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The concept of 'Native American' seems out of place in a 19th century world. It's a 20th century political construct that hasn't emerged in that world yet.

There were about 6-8 major cultural groups in the area of the US about the time Europeans showed up to catalog and record them that way.

About the same number of major language groups, though there were many (many) more individual languages. There really was an Indian sign language which spanned a lot of those cultural groups (and at least one other in the East). More than just a trade pidgin, it was a full language in which you could debate the differing religions, were you so inclined, with its own independent linguisitic development (as opposed to being a signed version of some particular spoken language, as with, say, ASL).

If you want to break up the US into Native American nations, you'll need somewhere between six and ten of them, not just one.

If the Old West style survives in recognizable form, you'll mostly be concerned with Plains Indians (just like all that Hollywood stuff), with maybe some Southwestern or Basin depending on exactly where you set the game. Though it'd be odd to change history enough to have organized nations on par with the Europeans established by 1870 without changing an awful lot of the history that got you to that recognizable background.

Another possibility is just to make the setting more of an expy, without depending on literal details of the historic US. You can have six-shooters and horses and noble savages and bold men doing what's right in a lawless region without dragging in real history. That lets you more freely edit the world to suit yourself, without also dragging in modern politics. Of course, that also gives up some of the appeal, and demands more creative writing skill to carry off your analog without being too obvious or losing the intended message behind all the invention.