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Old 03-22-2017, 04:08 PM   #11
Litvyak
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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As a GM, don't push monster active defenses above 10 on a regular basis. Overcoming HP and DR is fun. Missing a lot is frustrating.
This. In one campaign I briefly played in, the very first encounter on the way to the dungeon involved otherwise insignificant foes who had high active defenses (I seem to recall that their active defenses got higher as they took casualties or something like that). Needless to say every single hit I made got negated by active defenses. At the end of the first session, instead of thinking "This is awesome! I can't wait for next week!" I was thinking, "Why the heck did I even bother showing up?"
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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This. In one campaign I briefly played in, the very first encounter on the way to the dungeon involved otherwise insignificant foes who had high active defenses (I seem to recall that their active defenses got higher as they took casualties or something like that). Needless to say every single hit I made got negated by active defenses. At the end of the first session, instead of thinking "This is awesome! I can't wait for next week!" I was thinking, "Why the heck did I even bother showing up?"
No sure I agree with this. Chipping away at a huge pile of HP is why I don't like playing "that other game". It tends to turn combat into "mash the attack button till it dies".

High defense monsters means you have to adjust your strategy. Deceptive attacks, maneuvering behind, magical counter measures, etc. All of which are more interesting than, "I attack... hit... damage... no major wound... no 1/3 HP... next."
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

It's not D&D. It's DF so change (almost) all your assumptions.

Stop thinking like D&D. Stop using D&D terms (eg 'called shot' it's a targeted attack.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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It's not D&D. It's DF so change (almost) all your assumptions.

Stop thinking like D&D. Stop using D&D terms (eg 'called shot' it's a targeted attack.
That is something I think you need some tolerance for. People on these fora still confuse sequence with initiative pretty regularly and this is the home of hard corps GURPS fandom (and that actually has some potential for confusion unlike "called shot"). I'm all for precise language, but pedantry just causes friction.

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Old 03-22-2017, 08:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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No sure I agree with this. Chipping away at a huge pile of HP is why I don't like playing "that other game". It tends to turn combat into "mash the attack button till it dies".

High defense monsters means you have to adjust your strategy. Deceptive attacks, maneuvering behind, magical counter measures, etc. All of which are more interesting than, "I attack... hit... damage... no major wound... no 1/3 HP... next."
I don't think we actually disagree, we've just seen opposite problems.

My point was to use high active defenses - particularly dodge - sparingly. Yes, they can provide a fun challenge sometimes. But most enemies should be fairly hitable.

On the "pile of HP" side, I'd save anything with HP over 20 for special occasions as well. Again, the players start to feel like they're not doing anything.

Likewise, keep track of the breakpoints in the damage capacity. Usually 5 points of DR is a lot, but some damage gets through. DR 10 is a point where serious extra strategy is necessary.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:53 PM   #16
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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No sure I agree with this. Chipping away at a huge pile of HP is why I don't like playing "that other game". It tends to turn combat into "mash the attack button till it dies".

High defense monsters means you have to adjust your strategy. Deceptive attacks, maneuvering behind, magical counter measures, etc. All of which are more interesting than, "I attack... hit... damage... no major wound... no 1/3 HP... next."
I have similar feelings about "that other game" so I understand, and to be clear I'm not against adversaries with high active defenses, only against overdoing them. Though, really, overdoing any type of defense can cause problems for any PCs that are disproportionately affected by that defense.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:05 PM   #17
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Remember that small bonuses matter. In That Other Game, a +1 bonus is always an additional 5% chance. But for a low-to-mid range skill in GURPS, a single +1 can produce a big swing in your odds. So treasure even the small stuff!
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Old 03-23-2017, 07:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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I don't think we actually disagree, we've just seen opposite problems.
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I'm not against adversaries with high active defenses, only against overdoing them.
Oh, absolutely. In any game, and DF particularly too much of anything is going to be a game killer.

I use fodder that always make all out attacks (and have low ST or skill, so the bonuses are needed). So they don't defend at all.
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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As a GM, don't push monster active defenses above 10 on a regular basis. Overcoming HP and DR is fun. Missing a lot is frustrating.
For a starting DF party, I normally figure they have an average attack skill of around 16 which means that against an AD 10 (inclusive of all bonuses) is going to hit about 50% of the time.

also, if they DO have skills past 16 (which is not uncommon in DF) its gonna break down more or less like this assuming players take DA penalties to drop opponents AD.
16 v 10 = 50% hit
18 v 10 => 16 v 9 = 60% Hit
20 v 10 => 16 v 8 = 70% hit
22 v 10 => 16 v 7 = 80% hit
24 v 10 => 16 v 6 = 90% hit

Getting through DR is a related, but slightly different, kettle of KuoToa

I normally figure 1d+3 to be average damage for starting DF guys, but YMMV. As an example, if you do 1d+3 you can expect, on the rounds that their attack succeeds and the opponents defenses fail, BEFORE WOUNDING MODIFIERS:

6.5 damage per turn per charachter vs DR0
5.5 dpt v DR 1
4.5 dpt v DR 2
3.5 dpt v DR 3
2.5 dpt v DR 4
1.5 dpt v DR 5
1 dpt v DR 6
.5 dpt v DR 7
and at DR 8 you can pretty much hang it up although there are times when you'll roll a 6 and get through, they are rare enough (1 in 6 ) that they are effectively negligible.

So if you've got 16 v 10 (50%) doing 1d+3 vs DR 2 (4.5) you can expect about 2.25 (.5 X 4.5) dmg per turn BEFORE wounding mods. Assuming cutting (1.5), your looking at about 3.4 DMG (2.25 x 1.5) per turn.

Nymdok

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Old 03-23-2017, 11:20 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Players and GMs: What Tips You Would Give to a New Player?

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As a GM, don't push monster active defenses above 10 on a regular basis. Overcoming HP and DR is fun. Missing a lot is frustrating.
High active defenses are a pretty substantial part of how you make things survive in GURPS; not every boss needs to be a large pile of hit points. However, you certainly should remember active defenses when considering how powerful you think a critter is.
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