12-12-2014, 04:23 AM | #71 | |||||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Turn U1: Wait. Turn K1: Step into Reach 1, make any facing adjustment if necessary. * U's Wait is triggered. U1 makes two steps into K's front-left hex then rear-left one, maybe Feints. * interrupt complete, K1 continues, being forced to attack as a Wild Swing or with a left-hand punch/kick. Turn U2: do whatever is appropriate. K will defend if possible. Turn K2: K can now turn, unless grappled. If grappled, K has all sorts of problems. Quote:
(Now, if you somehow managed to start in a Rear Hex, Feint is irrelevant and the opponent can't defend at all; but you're still in a Side-Rear Hex when your turn starts, so Runaround applies.) The Feint is there largely to prevent a knife cut to the grappling arm. Quote:
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Arm Lock is cool for its +4 to resist Breaking Free and cumulative -1 to Break Free, which is important against an armed opponent. I'm also tempted by the potential use as two levels of Deceptive Attack. Last edited by vicky_molokh; 12-12-2014 at 06:27 AM. |
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12-12-2014, 06:20 AM | #72 | ||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Also when you say front left hex, do you mean left side hex? Quote:
However here' where it gets into reading of the wording GURPS pg386 regarding Step says: "You may change facing freely before or after you move" If your wait is triggered by the target moving towards you one hex but before he attacks, when does the face change occur? Is you wait actually after he move forward after he does or doesn't change facing but before he attacks, or after he moves but before he changes facing and attacks? These are getting to be pretty precise Waits considering the basic premise is all this is happening at the same time (but you and I may treat waits a bit differently as per last thread) Quote:
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If it's tied to a wait, if you not doing waits it's You go: step and feint, I go step and/or adjust facing attack, You go facing back to where it was (but you get any feint benefit) You need to define you terms of the set up here. there's a lot of assumed waits, and the target just moving forwards and attacking etc. Also just think about feints and unarmed combat, a feint can only happen if the supposed attack is in reach, so that means to do an unarmed feint you have to be in CC, or feinting off kicking? EDIT: unless you saying well "I could in theory do a AoA(L) and grapple at reach 1", but that to me over balances feint. Quote:
But it does that best by removing his area of advantage. So you facing the chap with the knife, you arm lock the knife wielding hand (and a high arm lock skill means you more likely to avoid getting parried with knife while doing so), but getting the arm lock means that you can not only do damage (through the lock) but stop him form damaging you (from the knife) one last thing all this changes again if you use T-bones variable defence at different reaches tweak! Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 06:34 AM. |
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12-12-2014, 06:34 AM | #73 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
The methodology Vickie is pitching with the Wait->Feint->Move is covered in Mark Langsdorf's No School Grognard blog, along with illustrations to show how it actually works.
Here is the link to that particular post. It really keys off of the bad guy not being able to retreat against a feint. |
12-12-2014, 06:45 AM | #74 | |||||||||||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Woops, needs to be first hex of movement into front-left, second into rear-left. A kick or sweep is within Reach 1, so I can feint, because I could attack him with it. Another interesting option is a Defensive Feint, if you believe you need a failed attack more than you need to be non-parried (not sure why, but there might be some tactic for that). Quote:
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12-12-2014, 07:40 AM | #75 | |||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Only you won't be grappling with the CA as your not in CC (need another hex of movement) if you stated from the front, you can get to a side hex but at reach one, or you go straight into CC (in fact you don't need CA to do that last one), but you can't go to a side hex and then step into CC and grapple with side bonuses. (and we still need to know how Cam&MA deals with facing in CC). Quote:
Out of interest which is that attack not wild (is there a page ref, it's just all attacks to all side hexes are wild AFAICT) Quote:
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Only you talking about moving to his left and to his left side hex, and now grappling his right hand, all the while he suffers all the penalties of facing while you don't suffer any?? Again Cam&MA needs some facing rules in CC before I'd allow that. Quote:
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Like feints involving shield bash, I'd probably rule that you'd have to have actually done one of those kind of attacks first before you could feint with them. Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 07:51 AM. |
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12-12-2014, 07:50 AM | #76 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Its still bit risky for the unarmed chap because he's parrying an armed attack (depending on skill levels dodge might be better) However the target can still retreat when your attack finally comes. (only in this case he retreat will be moving forward and away from you, rather than back and away) Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 07:59 AM. |
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12-12-2014, 08:10 AM | #77 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Who attacks like that? The guy who owns the school where I train and teach has been in Law Enforcement for over 25 years now. He has worked the streets, and has trained and led LOTS of officers who have done the same. He's shown us videos of knife attacks and had officers who have been attacked by knife wielding assailants come to the school and share their experiences. In no instances have the assailants ever attacked like that that guy is doing in the video above. And it's not just that one video. I've worked with lots of practitioners...from Judo and BJJ to Karate, TKD, and even Krav Maga. Most of their Knife Defense is complete garbage and just wouldn't work/isn't practical against an assailant with a knife. Maybe my perspective is also skewed because FMA generally teaches attacking with a knife as well as defending against one, so we learn how to cut before learning how to not to get cut. Just about all of the other stylists I've worked with never train how to use a knife, which I think is why their defenses are crap...they train to defend against the kind of attack that never comes. Even untrained people generally don't attack like that. And while the stab is probably the most common type of knife attack, most styles don't teach how to defend against cuts/slashes. This video shows a lot of knife vs. knife, but you get the idea of attacking and defending from different gates/angles. I'm not saying Eskrima/Arnis/Kali is perfect, or that skilled unarmed practitioners can easily defeat an armed assailant (that scenario is NEVER easily, no matter the skill disparity), but at least we train to deal with a bunch of different types of attacks that are likely to come rapidly (sewing-machine stab is most common) and from all kinds of different angles. |
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12-12-2014, 08:12 AM | #78 | ||||||||||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Anyway, you can reach his Rear-Left hex with CA or with a normal Attack + Sideslip (assuming he doesn't Feint instead, which he might!). You don't try to grapple yet. You grapple with your next turn, Stepping into CC into his back arc. Judo can sweep/trip, yes? Quote:
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Which means that if you don't expect the opponent to have PV, you can even go CA and just double-step to his rear-right hex, eliminating the issue of being unable to grab the knife arm entirely (whatever is its resolution on cross-grabs). Quote:
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Point. Though this is a tangent - you can only meaningfully strike/grapple twice if you're in range. OTOH, if your first attack was Waited, then you can step forward on your next attack to stay within range, before he gets to Retreat and Step on his next turn. Quote:
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He does not approach. He CA's. He AoA's. He defensively approaches in AoD:Dodge. He Moves And Attacks (maybe with a Slam). He Moves in. Thoughts on each? AoA seems too risky against a skilled opponent: instant grab/takedown, maybe Trip or something else, at +4 for Telegraphic Attack. Quote:
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12-12-2014, 08:23 AM | #79 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2014 at 09:04 AM. |
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12-12-2014, 09:04 AM | #80 | ||||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Unarmed vs. Knife
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yes but at lower skill (sweep is skill -3, trip is skill parry -1) and actually since is expressly says you can't attack with trip, I wouldn't allow you to feint with it (offensive trip is basically sweep) Quote:
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However we just had a thread on that pretty much determined that you and I have different views on wait. Quote:
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This doesn't seem to have much to do with post I was responding too. Quote:
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we seem to constantly talking past each on this one so lets restate. You start directly facing him in his front hex. if you CA you can move two hexes around to his back left hex. (but you can't grapple as you are not in CC range). If you then make Step attack you can move into CC with your step, or move one more hex around to his rear hex (but again you can't grapple if you do that your not in CC range). to go from the front hex to the back rear hex and then into CC you need to move a total of 4 steps. You can do this with wait CA followed by another CA, or a wait feint with step, a defence with slip and a CA. But the former gives the target a chance to retreat which will ruin it, the later is the only way to do it without giving the target a chance to retreat, but you'll be taking an attack and your unarmed. And again facing penalties apply for attacks form the back hex(es), where are the rules (other then in TG) for facing and CC? Quote:
That seems reasonable, or course the QC will be based off your Sweep or trip skill, which makes sense its harder to believably pretend to sweep than pretend to punch. Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-14-2014 at 01:55 AM. |
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martial arts, technical grapping, technical grappling |
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