Powerstones and Intrinsic Value

[Whitewings]

We all know the formula and the rules by now: $10p^2+$40P =V, where P is the intended target strength of the powerstone and V is the intrinsic value of the item in question. But this quickly leads to a problem that I can't find addressed anywhere: what constitutes 'intrinsic?' For example, a car depreciates in value very quickly, personal electronics even more so. And of course, the cost of a given thing can vary from place to place; go to Iran and buy a genuine Persian rug and it will cost, let's say, $50. The same rug bought in a store in Canada might well cost $500. And yes, I know the GURPS dollar sign doesn't automatically mean "dollars" in the sense of the contemporary currency unit. That is both true and irrelevant. The question remains: What determines a thing's intrinsic value?

[Bruno]

If you're talking about depreciation and local price differences, you're already off into a far more complex economic model than that particular rule was ever written for.

It's written for an economic model where there's a price list in a rule book where Persian rugs cost $250, and the GM's notes might say "Persian rugs cost 1/5th list cost in Iran" and "Persian rugs cost 2x list cost in Canada". That would make the intrinsic value of the Persian rug 250$, because that's what it says on the price list.

Yes, this is a brutally simplified and rather unrealistic economic model. If you're not an economist or economics-minded, this is an abstraction of convenience that makes things work with a relatively simple rule (the binomial equation involved aside).

If you prefer a more economics-minded approach to things, I suggest not using "value" at all, as it's a purely ephemeral concept. Come up with something based on physical properties - perhaps going right back to the original "Must be an opal, reserve capacity is based on weight in carats".

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Bruno

[1] I'm certain that's not a word

I would just say "economics-minded."

Bill Stoddard

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would just say "economics-minded."

A far less tortured construction, thank you.

[D10]

Other peoples perceptions.

If no one thinks powerstones are worth anything, the demand will be 0 and they will have no intrinsic value.

But in your average fantasy setting, not only the gemstones have their own value as ornaments, they also have an added value of being a tool that magic users can use to great effect.

Its hard to quantify exacly how much something is worth, but I believe that in a DF setting, gems will get exponentially more expensive the bigger they are.

A 1ct gem in a magical world will probably be worth just as much as it is in a non magical one

But the bigger you get, the more usefull and rare it is, and therefore more expensive.

Quirks can depreciate the intrinsic value of the powerstone, as damage can also do, but its not like a powerstone has a ton of moving parts, fuel requirements, and etc... Its something that can last millenia if you take good care of it.

[D10]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you prefer a more economics-minded approach to things, I suggest not using "value" at all, as it's a purely ephemeral concept. Come up with something based on physical properties - perhaps going right back to the original "Must be an opal, reserve capacity is based on weight in carats".

I didnt knew that in 4e capacity was no longer based on carats

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by D10

I didnt knew that in 4e capacity was no longer based on carats

It's not. It's purely based on "intrinsic value" - if you don't meet the intrinsic value threshold for the capacity, the energy required quadruples. Gems are referenced as a convenient small-size store of value.

[D10]

Originally Posted by Bruno

It's not. It's purely based on "intrinsic value" - if you don't meet the intrinsic value threshold for the capacity, the energy required quadruples. Gems are referenced as a convenient small-size store of value.

Well then its completely arbitrary I assume ?

Because if you dont have any sort of guideline (such as the carats) it comes down to GM arbitrary decision on every single stone in the gameworld.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by D10

Well then its completely arbitrary I assume ?

Because if you dont have any sort of guideline (such as the carats) it comes down to GM arbitrary decision on every single stone in the gameworld.

Fundementally, the price of anything, anywhere, is completely arbitrary. There's some theoretical floors on the price of things depending on the price of things (including labor) required to produce them, which of course in turn depends on the price of the things required to produce THOSE and all the way down the stack of turtles. That's the 0 profit margin price - but even then, it's purely theoretical and depends on that entire chain of requisites also being priced purely at their 0 profit margin price.

Things can be charged any amount over that price, and if the market will bear the markup, well, it does. And things can be charged any amount under that price down to 0 for various reasons (loss leaders and other promotions, clearing out old stock that's preventing more profitable stock from being supplied, or somehow evading paying for one of the prerequisites are the usual reasons).

Economics is complex, but whether it's the GM or a very long chain of human beings charging for stuff, the price is fundementally arbitrary.

That's why gamebooks have price lists - for people who find that thought horrendous :) Dungeon Fantasy 8 has prices for various gems, although I'd note that they're the sort of (arbitrary) prices that are suitable for Dungeon Fantasy games and not for rigorous historical or economic simulations. I'm pretty sure Low Tech or Low Tech 3 has some notes, although it may be vaguely abstracted under luxuries.

Gem prices are especially prone to arbitrary pricing because they are basically just pretty rocks for most of human history. They don't even have significant industrial uses until the last hundred years or so, and industry is perfectly happy to use the "flawed" and synthetic gems.

[Bruno]

If you mean what's the rule in Magic, that's the rule referenced in the original post of this thread - which is yes, fundementally an arbitrary formula to determine the value required for a given capacity of Powerstone. It's descended from the formula to calcuate the value of an opal of sufficient carats from earlier editions of Magic, but frankly that formula was fairly arbitrary too.