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Old 12-10-2014, 07:59 PM   #1
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Unarmed vs. Knife

Here's a little thought exercise for the community.

Given an exceedingly skilled but realistic martial artist (skill(s) at 16 - 18 range plus a few improved techniques), how would you go about disarming (or dealing with) an assailant armed with a knife?

I'm looking for melee combat approaches, not answers like "run", "bargain with him", or "shoot him".

Martial Arts and Technical Grappling offer a plethora of methods for dealing with this sort of situation, and I'd like to know what the community members feel is the most effective/efficient/safest way to deal with an assailant armed with a knife when you are unarmed.

In addition to seeing your options/tactics/techniques of choice, I'd like to know WHY you would choose that method over any of the other options available.

EDIT

For those who see how many pages this thread has grown too and would like a TL;DR, I'll summarize the tactics people have mentioned so far.

In no particular order...

1. Judo Parry to Arm Lock (then anything after that is just gravy)
2. Karate Kick to knife hand (with lots of DA to reduce the parry chance)
3. Judo/Karate attack to Disarm (with improved Disarm technique from Martial Arts)

The jury is still out on the "Retreating parry to feint stepping to non-weapon side to Arm Lock the non-weapon arm" shenanigans, so I'm not going to put it in the list.

Last edited by TheOneRonin; 12-14-2014 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Added summary of suggestions so far
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:19 PM   #2
Toptomcat
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Judo 18 + All-Out Defense (Parry) + Retreating Parry + Cross Parry, followed up by an Arm Lock, is a very attractive answer, providing a very reliable defense immediately followed by an attack that controls, damages, and takes the weapon out of the equation. Buy up Arm Lock and Counterattack to enhance it.

I'd choose a grappling answer over a striking-oriented one because you specify a single assailant and not more than one, where grappling becomes more problematic. I'd choose a reactive answer over a proactive one because the after-a-parry application of Arm Lock permits the opponent only one chance to parry you rather than two, and giving them a chance to parry you risks hand injury per the B.376 rules for parrying unarmed attacks with edged weapons. I'd choose a retreating parry because duh. I'd choose a Cross Parry because I'm assuming my enemy doesn't have the high skill needed to Rapid Strike or the Extra Attack advantage.

Last edited by Toptomcat; 12-10-2014 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:29 PM   #3
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
Judo 18 + All-Out Defense (Parry) + Retreating Parry + Cross Parry, followed up by an Arm Lock, is a very attractive answer, providing a very reliable defense immediately followed by an attack that controls, damages, and takes the weapon out of the equation. Buy up Arm Lock and Counterattack to enhance it.
.
Arm Lock is certainly valid but unless the knife wielder has Skill-24 and can drop 8 pts of that into Deceptive Attack it might be overkill.

I'm not sure you can follow an All Out Defense with any sort of offensive move. Even a Counterattack.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:36 PM   #4
Toptomcat
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Arm Lock sez you can use it 'on the first turn following a parry', which means you can All-Out Parry and, on your next turn when you aren't All-Out Defending, Arm Lock the poor sucker.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:43 PM   #5
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

I'd also got with Toptomcat's answer, with a slight change: Retreating puts you farther from the knifeman, and makes it hard to close into his hex to effect the arm lock. It's generally better to Sideslip and then step into the foe's hex for the grab.

After the arm lock, a throw from the lock will generally break the knife wielder's arm, effectively disarming him, if the lock wasn't sufficient.
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Old 12-10-2014, 09:00 PM   #6
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I'd also got with Toptomcat's answer, with a slight change: Retreating puts you farther from the knifeman, and makes it hard to close into his hex to effect the arm lock. It's generally better to Sideslip and then step into the foe's hex for the grab.
Depends on the knife and the attack. With the knife in the basic book, the bad guy has to be in Close Combat for a Thrusting attack. If he does that, then you can retreat to an adjacent hex and still be able to move into close combat on your turn.

Quote:
After the arm lock, a throw from the lock will generally break the knife wielder's arm, effectively disarming him, if the lock wasn't sufficient.
Absolutely! But without AoA (Double) or Rapid Strike, you cannot lock and throw in the same turn. Waiting until your next turn gives your foe yet another opportunity to try and break free. Or he may just try and knee you in the junk or punch you in the face with his free hand.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:56 PM   #7
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
Arm Lock sez you can use it 'on the first turn following a parry', which means you can All-Out Parry and, on your next turn when you aren't All-Out Defending, Arm Lock the poor sucker.
Yup, that's right.

The Retreating AoD parry actually happens during the Bad Guy's turn, not during the Hero's turn.

So after the Parry, it is the Hero's turn again. And he can attempt an arm lock, an elbow to the face, or a kick to the junk.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:58 PM   #8
Flyndaran
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Yup, that's right.

The Retreating AoD parry actually happens during the Bad Guy's turn, not during the Hero's turn.

So after the Parry, it is the Hero's turn again. And he can attempt an arm lock, an elbow to the face, or a kick to the junk.
that makes no sense. How can you retreat away only to magically be next to your target immediately after?
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Old 12-10-2014, 09:00 PM   #9
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
Arm Lock sez you can use it 'on the first turn following a parry', which means you can All-Out Parry and, on your next turn when you aren't All-Out Defending, Arm Lock the poor sucker.
You choose All Out Defense during your _attacker's_ Turn. When your Turn comes around you're locked into the All-Out Defense you chose. You're not out of All-Out Defense until the _next_ time you choose a Defense and you can't attack until after that.

Like I said you're in an overkill situation anyway. You don't need to AOD. Just drop that part and go with the rest of it.
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Old 12-10-2014, 09:05 PM   #10
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You choose All Out Defense during your _attacker's_ Turn. When your Turn comes around you're locked into the All-Out Defense you chose. You're not out of All-Out Defense until the _next_ time you choose a Defense and you can't attack until after that.
The first paragraph under MANEUVERS in the Basic Set disagrees with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic Set, page 363
A “maneuver” is an action that you can take on your turn. Each turn, you must choose one of the following maneuvers: Aim, All-Out Attack, All-Out Defense, Attack, Change Posture, Concentrate, Do Nothing, Evaluate, Feint, Move, Move and Attack, Ready, or Wait. Your choice determines what you can do on your turn, and sets your options for active defense and movement.
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