What Use Do Humans Have in Transhuman Space?

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Is there a single job in the TS setting that wouldn't be better done by a machine?

I might be misremembering, but I thought there was something by David Pulver said there were still some jobs that people's physical bodies were still better/more efficient for.

If I had to guess some?

Making beds and some other domestic labor tasks.
Caring, showering and dressing other people, nursing babies and the like.
'Handmade' goods.
Painting, maintenance etc at the least quality control part of the task of physically doing something the robots or microbots failed

[Nelson Cunnington]

Of course, in the ultra-capitalist nations of the United States and China in the 22nd Century, all must work to support the ruling classes in their acquisitive and wasteful life-styles, so that the working classes can be robbed of the value of their labor and be demoralised by the conditions of that labor.

To this end, the least productive in the system must be constantly culled by natural disaster, infrastructure accidents, political riots, crime, neglect, and so forth, so that the working classes will accept their lot rather than risk becoming unemployed with no access to health and police insurance, while also on the constant edge of losing their meagre "universal" "benefit" if they can't find — in an unreasonably short period of time — one of the artificially scarce "jobs" the system provides.

Here in the TSA, we recognise the essential dignity of economic labor, and that of the other forms of occupation that contribute to all aspects of culture beyond the economic, and we ensure that none go hungry, or go without shelter, or health-care, or education in practical and artistic skills, while also ensuring that the most able contribute to those less lucky in circumstance or fortune by means of progressive economic limits on wealth acquisition.

Those blessed by not requiring fixed physical bodies must contribute more than those of us who are merely corporeal, of course, since they require less. As our political ancestors said, "de chacun selon sa capacité, à chacun selon ses œuvres." A modern economic system that does not support the populace in all their forms in all their works is not fit for purpose.

—Wulandari Tabuni, Junior Assistant Minister for Economic Translation (Nanosocialist-Democrat), and Dangdut-Jazz-fusion musician, Indonesia

[Ramidel]

American capital holders absolutely can decide that they'd rather have properly-programmed SAI serve their every need and that the proles serve no purpose. Maybe they should work on eliminating all that "welfare" humbug and put the surplus population on the "die faster" plan. Nothing could possibly go wrong! (As I read it, this hasn't fully happened yet because the American capitalist class tend to be highly conservative and fully automating the production lines would be a significant adjustment, but the threat of it is still there and is a rallying cry for the younger generation.)

Meanwhile, in the EU and the Caliphate, SAIs are not cheaper than humans to employ - because they have rights and can compete in the labor market. And in many other places, the necessary IP for AI and bots is not as cheap as a bioroid or human worker (because human labor in those areas is cheap, and because it's harder - thus more expensive - to find good tech in Fourth Wave countries).

In the Caliphate, there's also religious reasons why they refuse to automate away human labor.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ramidel

American capital holders absolutely can decide that they'd rather have properly-programmed SAI serve their every need and that the proles serve no purpose. Maybe they should work on eliminating all that "welfare" humbug and put the surplus population on the "die faster" plan. Nothing could possibly go wrong!

They are not idiots. And not just because the country is still somewhat democratic and nobody really wants a revolution. They know that what makes the widget makers they own valuable is that people buy widgets. If there are no customers, there is no economy, and they can't eat widgets. And yes, they must know this, given the shrinking population and the fact that all the developing markets have more or less developed means that they have seen other capital holders struggle as their markets evaporated over the last half century. They may not like paying taxes to support the poor, but ultimately that redistribution from people who make different widgets is what supports their businesses too.

[Ramidel]

Originally Posted by malloyd

They are not idiots. And not just because the country is still somewhat democratic and nobody really wants a revolution. They know that what makes the widget makers they own valuable is that people buy widgets. If there are no customers, there is no economy, and they can't eat widgets. And yes, they must know this, given the shrinking population and the fact that all the developing markets have more or less developed means that they have seen other capital holders struggle as their markets evaporated over the last half century. They may not like paying taxes to support the poor, but ultimately that redistribution from people who make different widgets is what supports their businesses too.

I concede that in 2100, the American Democratic Party oligarchy's dominant meme is long-view preservationism, and the global economy seems to be oriented around producing IP rather than chasing finance, so a lot of mindlessly-destructive behavior for short-term gain is mitigated. Even ignoring IP questions, Duncanite ancap is not popular there.

I was referring to the fact that technologically speaking, in the Fifth Wave, this is a won't, not a can't. You absolutely can eat widgets - or at least, you can make widgets to make fauxflesh. Of the four factors of production, there's no getting away from land, but we have made labor optional in favor of capital. Money is not necessary either - it's just the current system.

Some of this decoupling is going on already (particularly between the hyperdeveloped and developing countries, as mentioned on Broken Dreams p.20) but the American gerontocracy's current strategy is manageable change within the current system, rather than phasing out the working class. For both reasons you mentioned, as well as the fact that the underemployed still generate economic activity (just a lot less of it). And that means a welfare state.

[Astromancer]

I've got to say this thread reminds me of "The Jetsons". The technological setting is advanced but the political view is a parody of the present day.

In the pre-Industrial world almost everyone worked at least 72 hours a week. This wasn't likely spread evenly throughout the year. THS would be as different from our society as we are from 19th century China or 14th century Germany. People would stay in school longer with more attention to actually educating them. They'd retire earlier, mass retirement wasn't a thing until just before living memory. Hours worked per week would be fewer and spread over fewer days.

These changes would follow a pattern Otto von Bismarck call "social security." The point was that society had changed and People needed to adapt or face revolution. The British elites made similar choices in other things and also avoided explosions. I make the assumption that the elites would give a little (as little as they could get away with) to avoid disaster. However, as higher educational levels would be vital to ecconomic completion, they'd need to give much more than seems likely to us in a less educated period.

[Ramidel]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The point was that society had changed and People needed to adapt or face revolution. The British elites made similar choices in other things and also avoided explosions. I make the assumption that the elites would give a little (as little as they could get away with) to avoid disaster.

Which is not the assumption that Transhuman Space makes! The assumption in THS is that the Fourth Wave transition was handled a lot of different ways in different places, some of which absolutely did explode (and the fallout from said explosions led to, among other things, the formation of the Transpacific Socialist Alliance), while other places chose some level of reform along the lines you suggest, and then Kazakstan successfully repressed the populace by force and gave them nothing but a heavier boot on their head.

And now THS is right in the middle of another such transition to the Fifth Wave. How will the world handle this new transition? Play to find out!

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

I've got to say this thread reminds me of "The Jetsons". The technological setting is advanced but the political view is a parody of the present day.

In the pre-Industrial world almost everyone worked at least 72 hours a week. This wasn't likely spread evenly throughout the year. THS would be as different from our society as we are from 19th century China or 14th century Germany. People would stay in school longer with more attention to actually educating them. They'd retire earlier, mass retirement wasn't a thing until just before living memory. Hours worked per week would be fewer and spread over fewer days.

These changes would follow a pattern Otto von Bismarck call "social security." The point was that society had changed and People needed to adapt or face revolution. The British elites made similar choices in other things and also avoided explosions. I make the assumption that the elites would give a little (as little as they could get away with) to avoid disaster. However, as higher educational levels would be vital to ecconomic completion, they'd need to give much more than seems likely to us in a less educated period.

But are the elites in THS 22C facing revolution? One of the reasons Bismarck et al had to do what Bismarck knew they had to do was precisely that the military situation in the West mandated mass mobilization armies, and the industrial situation demanded huge masses of employees.

Does that translate to 2100+ in THS?

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

One of the reasons Bismarck et al had to do what Bismarck knew they had to do was precisely that the military situation in the West mandated mass mobilization armies, and the industrial situation demanded huge masses of employees.

I think what Bismarck did had less to do with that and more to with, "If I sit around and do nothing, the Socialists will get in and then the Kaiser will be forced to replace me." So he decided to take the wind out of their sails.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

But are the elites in THS 22C facing revolution?

I think the answer there is, "It depends". Depending on the country/transnational union, there are probably many different ways to go in a transition to the Fifth Wave. What I think can be reasonably assured is that the transition will threaten a big cross-section of society, but not necessarily in the same way.

A wealthy investor into Bioroids may be threatened by being pushed to the margins of high society by a rising SAI entrepreneur. A physician may be forced to contemplate an expensive investment in SAI that he would have preferred to spend on a vacation. A video editor may be forced to work longer hours to compete with SAI editors. An unemployed person may worried about what happens when the welfare dole becomes overtaxed by the newly unemployed. A bioroid may worry about what happens if their master determines their services could be done more cheaply by an SAI. These shared anxieties could form the basis of a cross-class alliance, or in other words, the basis for a revolution.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by TGLS

I think what Bismarck did had less to do with that and more to with, "If I sit around and do nothing, the Socialists will get in and then the Kaiser will be forced to replace me." So he decided to take the wind out of their sails.

Same thing, more or less. The danger of the Socialists getting in existed precisely because of the emergence of the new industrial-based working class and their conflict of interests with the old landed aristocrats. This happened all over Europe in one form or another, and (in different ways) in the USA at that time. Bismarck recognized the reality of the situation and adapted to it rather than make a futile attempt to suppress the changes.

I think the answer there is, "It depends". Depending on the country/transnational union, there are probably many different ways to go in a transition to the Fifth Wave. What I think can be reasonably assured is that the transition will threaten a big cross-section of society, but not necessarily in the same way.

A wealthy investor into Bioroids may be threatened by being pushed to the margins of high society by a rising SAI entrepreneur. A physician may be forced to contemplate an expensive investment in SAI that he would have preferred to spend on a vacation. A video editor may be forced to work longer hours to compete with SAI editors. An unemployed person may worried about what happens when the welfare dole becomes overtaxed by the newly unemployed. A bioroid may worry about what happens if their master determines their services could be done more cheaply by an SAI. These shared anxieties could form the basis of a cross-class alliance, or in other words, the basis for a revolution.

Yeah, but it doesn't seem to be happening much yet in the canon worldbooks. That doesn't mean it couldn't be in the immediate future, though.