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Old 09-30-2016, 04:21 PM   #31
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

The thing that has always come up in Sci-fi campaigns with mass produced robots or bioroids is that if humans can't get jobs, they can't participate in the economy. Slaves generate revenue such that they can't benefit fully from their labor. Robots as laborers don't have free will nor benefit from their labor.
Bioroids do not make economic sense in a societal fashion. Short term wise, they are exploitable labor. Long term wise, they're poison. If people don't have jobs, they can't purchase factory produced goods. If factories can't find a market for their goods, they go under.

Where that death spiral stops is anyone's guess. If the rich can get exploitable labor, what need do they have for the poor? They dont WANT the expensive labor option!

Ever wonder what workers in the oldest profession are going to think about sexbots? EVEN *that* profession will be automated (so to speak).

An economy needs participants. Shrink the participants, and you shrink the economy.
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:39 PM   #32
Flaco76
 
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

In many countries in Europe and Japan now the Birth Rate is below replacement level and many people are living longer and longer. So by 2100 how many countries are going to be below or just at replacement level? You are going to need new consumers and workers that eat, spend money at businesses etc? So why not make new workers?
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
They're also reasonably robust for their price. A combat-trained Submissa in a battlesuit is only slightly inferior to a full-metal RATS in terms of robustness, but saves a lot of money.
I would note that a lot of this comes from weird rules artifacts -- particularly, the rules used to create a battlesuit aren't the same as the rules used to create a cybershell. At a fundamental level, the comparison between cybershell and battlesuit should be "we're replacing 150 lb of meat and 30 lb of support systems with a 10 lb microframe". If you use the same rules to design both, the cybershell outperforms the battlesuit by a ridiculous margin (I posted this once before).
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Old 09-30-2016, 07:30 PM   #34
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
SAIs seem WAY over-designed for nearly every job they could do except those for which that whole ethical dilemma would make them not so sutiable for in the first place; suicide missions of military or scientific exploration types.
.
However it should be noted that canonically Transhuman Space does use SAIs for such missions. suicide missions are most of what puts the "kill" in the "K" in AKVs.

Charlie Sparrowhawk is definitely sapient too.

I think you yourself have said that most SAIs have so low a self-image that they functionally have On The Edge and don't care whether they live or die.
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Old 09-30-2016, 08:27 PM   #35
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
However it should be noted that canonically Transhuman Space does use SAIs for such missions. suicide missions are most of what puts the "kill" in the "K" in AKVs.

Charlie Sparrowhawk is definitely sapient too.

I think you yourself have said that most SAIs have so low a self-image that they functionally have On The Edge and don't care whether they live or die.
I think the setting descriptions and rules as written don't quite agree, so one version has to take precedence in each case on a GM to GM basis. As such, we're not all going to agree on which is best.
It seems like all life is considered less valuable than modern Westerners believe, but that A.I.s are considered just as valuable as fleshies.
It's not entirely predicated on the thread of doom topic either.

How do we create any setting where bioroids make sense as a large economical "product" even if we ignore all the ethical slavery issues?
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Old 09-30-2016, 08:35 PM   #36
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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I
How do we create any setting where bioroids make sense as a large economical "product" even if we ignore all the ethical slavery issues?
You need a government or similar organization made up of npcs who ignore the issue (as well as favorable economics of course).

The rejoinder to "But no ethical person would do this!" is "So? Are you postulating a world devoid of unethical persons?". Governments like this are really handy for evil stuff. They diffuse responsibility and pre-empt any punishment.
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Old 09-30-2016, 08:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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How do we create any setting where bioroids make sense as a large economical "product" even if we ignore all the ethical slavery issues?
A lot of the problem is "why are we bothering to make them sapient humanoids". I can think of lots of uses for the tech behind bioroids other than making bioroids.
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Old 09-30-2016, 09:02 PM   #38
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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A lot of the problem is "why are we bothering to make them sapient humanoids". I can think of lots of uses for the tech behind bioroids other than making bioroids.
Organ printing is the obvious one.
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Old 09-30-2016, 09:46 PM   #39
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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How do we create any setting where bioroids make sense as a large economical "product" even if we ignore all the ethical slavery issues?
Well the first and obvious application is military. If people are becoming more and more reluctant to spend the lives of their fellow citizens in warfare and bioroids can be cultured that can beat the human average in valuable traits like stamina, vision, hand eye coordination and their deaths won't be taken quite so seriously they may seem like a good idea. Particularly if they can be grown and made fighting fit with more speed than you can train natural soldiers.

Then there are the possibilities afforded by creating bioroids custom made for environments where you just aren't going to see a lot of humans wanting to live. Underwater, or at the poles, or on alien worlds, or in post nuclear hellscapes.

After that, for bioroids to make sense on a broader scale, you probably have to have to have a declining human population with an increasing median age (and a failure to entirely take up the slack with automation) leading to labour shortages.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 09-30-2016 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 09-30-2016, 10:06 PM   #40
hal
 
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Default Re: [THS] Why Make Bioroids?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Well the first and obvious application is military. If people are becoming more and more reluctant to spend the lives of their fellow citizens in warfare and bioroids can be cultures that can beat the human average in valuable traits like stamina, vision, hand eye coordination and their deaths won't be taken quite so seriously they may seem like a good idea. Particularly if they can be grown and made fighting fit with more speed than you can train natural soldiers.

Then there are the possibilities afforded by creating bioroids custom made for environments where you just aren't going to see a lot of humans wanting to live. Underwater, or at the poles, or on alien worlds, or in post nuclear hellscapes.

After that, for bioroids to make sense on a broader scale, you probably have to have to have a declining human population with an increasing median age (and a failure to entirely take up the slack with automation) leading to labour shortages.
Playing the Devil's advocate here...

"War is HELL." If the bioroids are designed to be obedient to the point of certain extinction, how do you motivate them to not throw their lives away in the heat of combat? If you make war TOO easy, then there will be more war? Are we talking about collateral damage that also affects humanity? Can Bioroids be made that will not attack humans? Can a Bioroid make the decision not to engage an enemy because they are shielded behind humans to the detriment of the Bioroids? What happens when a Bioroid causes civilian deaths? What are the legal ramifications of a "product" that causes death and destruction in a court of law? What if your opponent is fielding Bioroids and you're fielding humans? What if you're fielding bioroids and the enemy is fielding humans?

Now picture bioroids that Look human for the most part, but are "CUTE"? A video of a Bioroid making its last stand against certain death - might that not encourage people to empathize with the Bioroids as certainly as thy might with humans being sent to battle?
Round and round it goes...
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