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Old 08-12-2023, 08:31 PM   #11
Bathawk
 
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

Oh an additional thought or two...

What about prying the hatch open/off?

And I don't think you need to "explode" a tank to "kill" it right? If a punch is hard enough to cause a serious dent or hole in the vehicle wouldn't the kinetic impact cause a "kinetic kill" effect on the occupants? Or cause enough "internal injury" to the tanks mechanisms?

(Would also ask about HESH type attacks, but think that's a bit baroque for a supers campaign)
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Old 08-12-2023, 08:48 PM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
Oh an additional thought or two...

What about prying the hatch open/off?

And I don't think you need to "explode" a tank to "kill" it right? If a punch is hard enough to cause a serious dent or hole in the vehicle wouldn't the kinetic impact cause a "kinetic kill" effect on the occupants? Or cause enough "internal injury" to the tanks mechanisms?

(Would also ask about HESH type attacks, but think that's a bit baroque for a supers campaign)
No, HESH causes "spalling" and that's what you were asking about in the previous paragraph. Gurps has rules for HESH and you could reasonably treat a super-punch like a HESH warhead of the same raw damage.

Tearing the hatch off uses the same mechanics as bending the barrel and obviously the hatch or the latch holding it closed is nowhere near as strong as the barrel.
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Old 08-12-2023, 09:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

While more than a bit of a crock, don't forget you could get up to [-80%] for "Limitation: Only defends from/harms one specific tank."

Generally having an ability which only can be used against tanks in general is not likely to be worth more than -10% in a campaign where you fight a lot of tanks, but might be worth a bit more in a campaign where you live in classical Rome at the height of the Republic.
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Old 08-13-2023, 01:50 AM   #14
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

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Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
And I don't think you need to "explode" a tank to "kill" it right? If a punch is hard enough to cause a serious dent or hole in the vehicle wouldn't the kinetic impact cause a "kinetic kill" effect on the occupants? Or cause enough "internal injury" to the tanks mechanisms?
It's hard to say for sure but I really doubt it unless your punch literally hurls the tank. There's not a convincing mechanism I can see to cause damage to the crew or machinery based on a distant, narrow impact. (Except spalling, to some extent.)

Side note: flipping a tank over is likely much easier than punching through its armor.
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Old 08-13-2023, 03:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
A flying super can get above a T-72 and go through the weak top armor, needing to penetrate DR 90 and do around 180 HP injury to bring it below 0 HP, at which point it will probably stop working in a few seconds given that it has HP 9. Based on the Ukraine war, T-72s may be Fragile: Flammable and Explosive, in which case a mere 90 points of burning or explosive damage past DR has a 80+% chance of setting it on fire, followed by an ammo explosive and turret high jump. A 6dx7 (2) bu attack, average 147 damage and halving effective DR, would be sufficient.
That's because of extra ammo being stored all over the place, and would apply to any tank that doesn't store all the ammo in something like the M1's rear turret bustle with its blast-proof doors and blow-out panels. A T-72 series tank with ammo only in the carosel won't be brewing up from anything that hasn't already fried the crew on the way past if it's a top or high side attack.

Also, most of the brew-ups you see aren't instant - they're after the interior has already caught fire, the crew has bailed, and then the ammo has cooked off. The problem here isn't that they're more flammable than other tanks, but that the fire suppression systems often aren't good enough, though in GURPS' terms that can be treated as all part of the initial 'does it catch fire' check. I'd go so far as to say that of the crew of a T-72 series dumped all the non-carosel ammo (so they're only carrying the 22 rounds that the carosel carries), it should lose the 'x' on its health.

Funnily enough 'x' is probably less of a problem for a vehicle than 'c' - Explosive only triggers on critical failuires vs major wounds and instant death fails. Flammable means catching fire on any major wound's HT being failed, with a -3 on the check for burning and explosive attacks or vital hits (cumulative). Vehicles in general are probably Combustible, but with the HP10+ automatic fire being a HT roll (because otherwise it's going to be an automatic thing when using heavy weapons, and combat experience with tanks and ships shows that this is not the case).
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Old 08-13-2023, 03:24 AM   #16
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

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Originally Posted by Bathawk View Post
Oh an additional thought or two...

What about prying the hatch open/off?
The problem there would be getting leverage - tank hatches don't generally have much you could grab onto or get your fingers under, though some have sights mounted through them, and smashing your hand into the sight would give you something to grip (either the sight or the hole it was mounted in). Pulling it off once you have a grip would be like ripping off any other solidly secured door/hatch.
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Old 08-13-2023, 08:19 AM   #17
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
A modern tank turret weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/3 the weight of the entire tank. Typically nothing significant attaches the turret to the hull other than the turret's own weight. If you're strong enough to lift that ~20 ton weight, there's no additional "tearing" necessary. Grab it and fly away.
I was going to ask if that was the case. I knew it was with large naval turrets, as it's pretty normal to find wrecks without turrets, since they fell out when the ship capsized.
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Old 08-13-2023, 09:16 AM   #18
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
s already caught fire, the crew has bailed, and then the ammo has cooked off. The problem here isn't that they're more flammable than other tanks, but that the fire suppression systems often aren't good enough, ).
They're not good enough because propellant is self-oxidizing. You can't smother it after it catches fire. You have to cool it below ignition temp (for small fires or very large quantities of suppressant only) or put out a more conventional fire that would then ignite the propellant.

The molten metal of a HEAT jet is really problematic. It blasted through the armor because of kinetic energy rather than temperature but it's a great ignition source after penetration.
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Old 08-13-2023, 09:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

If your Superhero can fly or leap long distances, attack the relatively lightly armored top turret or engine compartment. That was the basic concept of the A10 Warthog aircraft. A few 30mm depleted uranium rounds rattling around inside the crew compartment renders the crew to goo and might cook off the ordnance or fuel. No need to reduce the HP to zero.

Substitute a superhero quality javelin in place of the 30mm gun and your SH doesn't even have to get near the tank.

Bonus of the air attack is most tank main guns can't elevate enough to be effective AA weapons.

A well prepared tank crew might have liberated some Stinger type AA missiles and attached them to the turret as ad-hoc SH defense.
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Old 08-13-2023, 09:50 AM   #20
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: In Gurps, how powerful do you need to fight a tank?

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Originally Posted by DeadParrot View Post
A well prepared tank crew might have liberated some Stinger type AA missiles and attached them to the turret as ad-hoc SH defense.
You need to point the IR sensor in the nose of those at the target. So probably it's an alternate weapon for the commander to use from an open hatch. It'll only work on Supers who have a "super" heat signature (by human standards) anyway.

A note about open hatches. A tank with its' hatch down is pretty miserable inside and the visibility is bad. The hatch will be open and the commander will have his head out a _lot_ of the time.

This means that a very mobile super with a bag of grenades can probably take out a bunch of tanks.
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Last edited by johndallman; 08-13-2023 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Fix quoting
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