10-02-2022, 01:25 AM | #21 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
Quote:
Even trying to get the bare minimum (ie no weapon turrets etc) AV-4, requires that I halve the DR from 40 to DR 20 just to get the weight of the vehicle down to something manageable.
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Newest Alaconius Lecture now up: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/scourge-of-shards-schpdx Go to bottom of page to see lectures 1-11 Last edited by hal; 10-02-2022 at 08:58 AM. |
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10-02-2022, 01:27 AM | #22 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
Quote:
That makes me feel a whole heck of a lot better where it comes to armoring up the AV-4. Thanks for the insight. :)
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10-02-2022, 09:00 AM | #23 | |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
Quote:
The F-35B works around some of its limitations, at a higher TL, but is unproven in action.
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10-02-2022, 10:33 AM | #24 |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Athens of America
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
The F-4 Phantom II would like to talk to you about trademark infringement.
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10-03-2022, 09:25 AM | #25 |
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: near London, UK
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
English Electric Lightning, anyone? :)
In the very first edition of Cyberpunk the AV-4 was described as having been built onto a surplus Pegasus-successor engine, which would imply a massive air intake (never shown in any of the art), and nozzles which could swivel between rearward, downward and a bit of forward thrust. As well as the other problems people have pointed out, there's a great big plume of hot air which an IR missile can follow all the way to the engine - there's no way of getting IR baffling into that system. It's worth noting that, while VIFFing turned out to have combat utility, the Harrier was expected to fly and fight in a conventional wingborne mode whenever possible - it's hugely vulnerable at the hover. Similarly the F-35 family. Top versus bottom thrust location doesn't really matter for a jet engine – consider also rockets, of which Goddard's early designs did put the motors at the top of the structure, but it turned out not to help. ("Pendulum rocket fallacy" may be a helpful phrase to search.) As I understand it, it makes some sense for helicopters because when the body tilts the rotor is flexible enough that it's still mostly providing downward thrust (no longer through the centre of mass, so there's a torque effect) – but with a rocket or jet the thrust vector moves instantly and rigidly with the body, so you don't get any extra stability. I don't think it's possible to design a realistic VTOL jet-engine craft that matches the AV-4's performance, armour and range. There's a reason we use wings.
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10-03-2022, 09:46 AM | #26 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
Quote:
Ve2 considers a lifting body as a sort of wing and infact doesn't distinguish betwen lifting bodies and flying wings. You could create a workable AV-4 by building it as a lifting body and loitering in forward flight with aerodynamic lift mode. You would need your engine to throttle down efficiently. You only need pure thrust in excess of weight for verical take off or landing. For cruising with aero lift as little as 1/5th to 1/10th that much would be fine..
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10-03-2022, 10:22 AM | #27 |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
It was terribly short of volume for fuel. The engines and their ducts occupy almost all of the fuselage. The Mk I version had fuel in the wing flaps.
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10-03-2022, 10:26 AM | #28 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
Which is correct, but the core thing to realize about vectored thrust air-breathing engines is that, outside of the very low velocity regime, the math controlling them is the same as the math for wings, and a multi-ton flying vehicle with a 5' wingspan would be spectacularly stupid.
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10-03-2022, 10:55 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
Quote:
In looking at the Logistics for trying to cover say, Los Angeles as it is today, I'd need four landing pads for the TT Inc to be based off of. With an area that is roughly 44 miles long by 29 miles wide, a vehicle moving at 210 MPH on average, would be able to cover an area with a roughly 12 mile radius. This presumes that it takes about 16 seconds to go from a speed of zero to a speed of 210 miles per hour. Time required to accelerate upwards and then start heading towards the last known location of the patient, would likely be such that a standing team waiting for a call might lose about 1 minute getting airborne and taking off, spend 3.5 minutes travelling at 210 miles per hour before decelerating and then landing. Call it roughly 5 minutes with a safety margin of 1 minute to spare to meet its SLA (Service level Agreement). IN bad weather, I don't know how that would work out, but presumably about the same. So - the GURPS Analog as depicted above - is it good enough?
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Newest Alaconius Lecture now up: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/scourge-of-shards-schpdx Go to bottom of page to see lectures 1-11 Last edited by hal; 10-03-2022 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Added link to the specs given in a different thread. |
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10-03-2022, 10:40 PM | #30 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Vectored thrust vehicles of CP2020
The Phantom (and the Lightning, for that matter) had a measurable glide angle. I'm pretty sure CP2020's AV-4s don't.
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