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Old 10-03-2022, 07:31 PM   #1
Jeminai
 
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Default Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

I was reading in the Seattle source book that about 60 days of the year are considered Stage Red Smog Days and people will have to wear breathing masks when outside. What would a workable game mechanic in GURPS be to represent this level of air pollution?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-03-2022, 07:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

Space pp 78, 80-81 have rules to cover marginal and polluted atmospheres.

You can treat the Red Smog as 1 point toxic attack area attack with Blood Agent, resisted by HT, with an onset of 1 hour. Possibly with Symptoms. People can survive without air masks, but presumably would prefer the masks to minimize the pain.

More generally, Basic p 429 has simple rules for corrosive, toxic, and suffocating atmospheres.
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Last edited by mlangsdorf; 10-03-2022 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 10-04-2022, 07:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Space pp 78, 80-81 have rules to cover marginal and polluted atmospheres.
Thanks for this. It feels like the GURPS Space sidebar on page 78 (Mildly Toxic) is exactly what I am looking for.

For my own clarity, would you say that the description of Mildy Toxic in the sidebar on page 78 would equate to the Red or the Purple in the following AQI Index chart?

https://www.airnow.gov/aqi/aqi-basics/
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Old 10-04-2022, 08:31 AM   #4
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
For my own clarity, would you say that the description of Mildly Toxic in the sidebar on page 78 would equate to the Red or the Purple in the following AQI Index chart?

https://www.airnow.gov/aqi/aqi-basics/
I think "Mildly Toxic" is at least Maroon on that scale. Remember that airnow.gov needs to consider what to say is safe for elderly, unhealthy people in a very litigious society. It is not dealing with astronauts.
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Old 10-04-2022, 10:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

The average healthy young adult male who spends two days breathing a Mildly Toxic atmosphere has a 50% chance of dying. That is insanely worse than an AQI level of 500 and according to the technical documents on the site would be classified as "Beyond the AQI."

As a reference, 35 ppm of carbon monoxide will give an AQI around 300 (maroon/purple), and that concentration causes mild headaches after 6-8 hours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning), so GURPS mildly toxic atmosphere is worse than that. Probably close to 200-400 ppm of carbon monoxide.

I'm not saying that Red Smog contains carbon monoxide. But carbon monoxide is a component of AQI and the effects of carbon monoxide are fairly well documented.
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Old 10-04-2022, 10:04 AM   #6
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I think "Mildly Toxic" is at least Maroon on that scale. Remember that airnow.gov needs to consider what to say is safe for elderly, unhealthy people in a very litigious society. It is not dealing with astronauts.
EDIT: The following is only indirectly related to GURPS, in that it's giving context for the GURPS related questions.

I feel a need to clear up some confusion: the AQHI has nothing to to with litigation, just like heat warnings or tsunami alerts have nothing to do with litigation. It's very hard to sue the air or water for being hostile, instead you have to prepare or hide.

It has everything to do with warning which populations might die or face permanent health consequences if they have to breathe the air, and under what circumstances.

The GURPS Space rules aren't for "astronauts" - they're just rules for dumping (adventuresome) humans into those conditions (and non-humans consult their relevant traits for how this modifies the rules for them, if at all).

Astronauts also don't really have special biological ability to process ozone, or microparticles, or sulphuric acid fog, they're just likely to not be in the vulnerable groups so they just don't read the line on the AQHI for vulnerable groups. They also usually enjoy excellent air quality due to being in a sealed tin can with bottled air and crazy expensive air filters (usually - Mir and days with equipment failures excepted).

Smog, for reference, classically is a combination of water, ozone, sulphuric acid, chemically-inert micro-particles that clog the lungs in the short term and cause cancer in the long term, and a miscellany of other garbage.

There's also a crap ton of inert particles in other size ranges that our respiratory tracts are pretty good at keeping out of the lungs proper, but aren't exactly healthful - the kind that make your snot black when you blow your nose on a bad air day.

Not joking about the sulphuric acid, either.
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Old 10-04-2022, 10:14 AM   #7
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

I think the mildly toxic or mildly corrosive atmospheres aren't a bad place to start for Earthly smog, but typically you get a significant bonus on HT rolls even for the worst days in the 1950s in London.
There are places on Earth where it gets worse and the bonus shrinks, disappears, or the category even goes up a notch, but typically you're looking at basically being in the source of the emissions like right next to the top vent on a smoke stack of an poorly/not controlled power plant, and possibly in an enclosed space too as in a house during a housefire (where if you survived for two days breathing the smoke it would be a miracle, but standing at a distance outside where you can't get burned is relatively safe re smoke).

A few large scale disasters like wildfire smoke, volcanic gas emissions, or limnic lake eruptions are hugely toxic or flat out unbreathable over large areas for long periods of time, and even then the danger goes down (and you get a HT bonus) with distance - it's just the source is so huge that the distance you have to go is pretty big.
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Old 10-04-2022, 01:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

The wikipedia article on carbon monoxide poisoning suggested that the CO levels in Mexico City traffic could reach 100-200 ppm, which is enough to cause mild headaches in a few hours.

I could see that level of toxic atmosphere being an HT check at a small bonus, rolled every few hours. It's also about the upper limit of what humans are going to be willing to live in, because again, the GURPS definition of mildly toxic is killing healthy adults in a matter of days.
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Old 10-05-2022, 09:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
The average healthy young adult male who spends two days breathing a Mildly Toxic atmosphere has a 50% chance of dying. That is insanely worse than an AQI level of 500 and according to the technical documents on the site would be classified as "Beyond the AQI."

As a reference, 35 ppm of carbon monoxide will give an AQI around 300 (maroon/purple), and that concentration causes mild headaches after 6-8 hours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning), so GURPS mildly toxic atmosphere is worse than that. Probably close to 200-400 ppm of carbon monoxide.
So to help mitigate this 50% chance of dying maybe I give a bonus to the roll so that it represents that it isn't necessarily lethal but does cause ill effects (e.g. triggers allergies, coughing, sneezing, headaches, migraines, congestion, etc.)

Let's assume that I give a bonus of +3 to the roll. This gives an average HT 10 person almost an 84% chance of no real side effects but they are rolling every hour of exposure so it becomes quite likely that a failure will occur after many hours.

This also means that anyone with low HT will still be very likely of suffering ill effects and if a person has any penalties to the roll because of pneumonic distress (e.g. pneumonia, asthma, pulmonary edema, bronchitis) then these acts as penalties that are offset by the +3.

The setting of Shadowrun is pretty solidly TL 9. The filter mask in Ultra Tech (pg 177) is very robust and I would assume it would nullify the effects of smog or at least give a +10 to the HT roll making the wearer immune unless their HT is remarkably low (less than HT 5 and maybe with unfit or very unfit, reserved for natal patients with undeveloped lungs, or severely lung impaired people). There is no actual rule in Ultra Tech about this so I am going out on a limb here.

I think SCBA masks from High Tech (pg 72) would basically be the same as their TL 9 equivalents but bigger and bulkier.

Due to recent events (Covid) there are other masks that are not as robust. Would these types of masks offer any protection by giving any kind of bonus? I would assume that this sort of mask (N95 or any of the plethora of cheap masks sold) might give some protection but what would you suggest? I was thinking +1 at most.
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Old 10-05-2022, 10:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: Shadowrun - Seattle Smog

For a less lethal, barely toxic atmosphere I would probably go with HT +2 to resist 1 point of toxic damage every 4 or 6 hours. That would allow a noticeably unhealthy person with HT 8 and HP 8 to survive for 3 or 4 days, and healthy adults could last a week or more. Still awful, but now it's down to severe Mexico City smog.

The frequency of checks is probably more important than the difficulty of checks. For an HT 10 individual, rolling once every 6 hours is better than rolling hourly with a +5 bonus.

Against an airborne blood agent (which I assume red smog would be), a TL 9 filter mask is going to provide 100% immunity, as would a TL7 SCUBA mask and tank. A TL 7+ gas mask would probably provide 100% immunity as well, but might only provide a really large bonus.

N95 masks provide protection against particulates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_respirator), not against gasses. Depending on the make-up of Red Smog, they may provide a small bonus against it, but you're really want eye protection, too.
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