GURPS Star Trek - Canon Vulcans

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I take inconsistencies in "Vulcan Logic" more as failures by script writers who have minimal training in philosophy or formal logic than as failures of the concept itself.

Vulcan society clearly has a lot of ritualism and a certain amount of mysticism, which might be ancient Vulcan religions repurposed to encompass Surak's philosophy. That's at odds with pure rationalism, but completely in keeping with the high degree of social control that Vulcans insist upon.

As Johnny1A.2 says, there's nothing irrational about studying psychic phenomena if you are, in fact, psychic.

"Captain, we are being watched."
"Are you sure? Intuition?"
"No, sir. We're being watched."
- "TOS, "The Devil in the Dark"

The way they go about it, with "monasteries", chanting, etc., might be distressing to a scientific human parapsychologist - it's probably a direct descendant of how they did it in their equivalent of the Middle Ages; Vulcan society seems to have a strong traditionalist streak. But it seems to work, quite reliably, so apparently there is actually a tried and tested system in there.

An odd thing, though, is that the Vulcans themselves seem rather embarrassed about the psychic stuff and act as if they thought it was a departure from their usual standards of "logic". In "Enterprise" mind melds were actually forbidden and believed to be against the teachings of Surak (although that turned out not to be true). And by the TOS era they still seemed to avoid discussing it with outsiders, if you can judge by how gobsmacked McCoy looked the first time he saw Spock perform a mind meld - it looked rather as if he'd never heard of this before.

Possibly one reason is that it doesn't allow for their usual level of mental discipline - you get whatever thoughts and emotions the other being has got, unedited, and Vulcans seem to think that that's terribly dangerous. (Maybe the Meditation mitigator, if using that, shouldn't apply to reactions to things picked up during a mind meld?)

The ceremonies in "Amok Time", on the other hand... that really doesn't seem to have much to do with logic. It seems to be implying that this is how they've handled pon farr since before Surak's time and possibly since the Stone Age because despite all the logic and mental discipline stuff they haven't been able to come up with a better idea - and that makes the whole thing all the more terrifying. No wonder Spock went to such lengths to try to avoid telling the humans about that.

[doctorevilbrain]

If Spock says they're being watched, it's probably because of his superb hearing.

[Inky]

Oh, that is also a thing, true. Sometimes hard to tell from the outside which of the specific ways Vulcans are spooky is in play! :-D

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Inky

The Romulans, who are genetically Vulcans (mostly) (possibly) but don't do that, seem at first sight to contradict that, but in fact their society is more murderous than most, and also they have their own pretty strict system going on, the mnei'sahe code.

One of things about the ST universe that I would love to see explored is the origins of the Romulans and how they got to be the way they are. They're clearly less physically and intellectually formidable than the Vulcans, but seem to have a better handle on their "unevolved" Vulcanoid emotions. If nothing else, they've turned "proto-Vulcan" physical aggression into viciously competitive passive aggression. I've got personal "head canon" for the differences, but there's nothing official.

The only series where you get to see Romulans as "people" rather than scary enemies is the recent Picard series, and in two seasons the story arcs have gone in different directions, so no much Vulcan/Romulan history. The reunited Vulcan/Romulan culture on Nivar in the 32nd century is also potentially fascinating, but doesn't look like it will ever be a primary focus.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by doctorevilbrain

If Spock says they're being watched, it's probably because of his superb hearing.

Alternately, Spock might have a limited form of Psi-based Detect (Life) power based on the ability to detect brainwaves. Remember, he's an impressive psionic adept in addition to all his other skill sets.

As another possibility, if the Horta have some form of species-specific psionic telesend power, the presence of the mother Horta could have given him a sense than an alien with psi powers was nearby. That info might have informed his decision to subsequently attempt telepathic contact via Mind Meld. You don't put yourself in close proximity to a ton of fast-moving, acid-filled rock to make first contact unless you've got a very good sense that you'll survive the encounter.

(Psionic Horta also make sense; the mother Horta had a psionic link to her offspring both to impart racial knowledge and to alert her if they are threatened. A severed Mindlink to hundreds or thousands of slain baby Horta would have driven her utterly mad with grief.)

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Inky

The way they go about it, with "monasteries", chanting, etc., might be distressing to a scientific human parapsychologist - it's probably a direct descendant of how they did it in their equivalent of the Middle Ages; Vulcan society seems to have a strong traditionalist streak.

My head canon is that the modern Vulcans are descendents of the priestly caste of Vulcanoids left on Vulcan after the Proto-Romulans headed to the stars. They would have just bolted old religious practices onto Surak's philosophy in the same way that Christianity co-opted many pagan traditions and holidays.

Originally Posted by Inky

In "Enterprise" mind melds were actually forbidden and believed to be against the teachings of Surak (although that turned out not to be true). And by the TOS era they still seemed to avoid discussing it with outsiders, if you can judge by how gobsmacked McCoy looked the first time he saw Spock perform a mind meld

That implies that there was further cultural regression after the time of Surak. Following the nuclear war that devastated Vulcan, the survivors might not have had the population or technology needed to preserve all of the old knowledge. If the population and social collapse took several generations to really hit, there could have been an initial flourishing of Surak's teaching, possibly including the founding of the monastery at P'Jem, which was subsequently lost.

McCoy's reaction probably comes from the fact that prior to Spock joining Starfleet, Vulcans appear to have kept pretty much to themselves. Spock was the first Vulcan to go through Starfleet Academy, and possibly the first Vulcan in 100 years to serve on a human-majority Starfleet ship. While McCoy might have been intellectually aware that Vulcans had psi powers, seeing them in use for the first time clearly rocked his world.

Originally Posted by Inky

Possibly one reason is that it doesn't allow for their usual level of mental discipline - you get whatever thoughts and emotions the other being has got, unedited, and Vulcans seem to think that that's terribly dangerous. (Maybe the Meditation mitigator, if using that, shouldn't apply to reactions to things picked up during a mind meld?)

There's actually good precedent in canon for this idea. In Voyager, Tuvok repeatedly Mind Melds with the Betazoid murderer, Lon Suder. The deep, repeated contact with such a disturbed person briefly messes with Tuvok's mind, giving him angry, murderous impulses which he struggles to contain. (Nobody does slow-burn, scary Vulcan like Tim Russ playing Tuvok.)

Originally Posted by Inky

The ceremonies in "Amok Time", on the other hand... that really doesn't seem to have much to do with logic. It seems to be implying that this is how they've handled pon farr since before Surak's time and possibly since the Stone Age because despite all the logic and mental discipline stuff they haven't been able to come up with a better idea - and that makes the whole thing all the more terrifying.

Pon Farr would be scary for any species, "you have two weeks to mate or else you die" is a vicious biological imperative.

For Vulcans, it typically blows away all their emotional control which is humiliating as well as being scary, especially in a culture where all but the most subtle emotional displays are considered to be in bad taste.

Oddly, Romulans don't seem to suffer from the same problem, or else it's never come up.

The new Strange New Worlds ST franchise makes it clear that Vulcans can have sex outside of Pon Farr, and that they can enjoy recreational sex. It's just a deeply private thing, typically between betrothed or married couples, however. (It also introduces T'Pring as a more sympathetic character rather than just Bride-From-Hell.)

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Pon Farr would be scary for any species, "you have two weeks to mate or else you die" is a vicious biological imperative.

For Vulcans, it typically blows away all their emotional control which is humiliating as well as being scary, especially in a culture where all but the most subtle emotional displays are considered to be in bad taste.

Oddly, Romulans don't seem to suffer from the same problem, or else it's never come up.

The new Strange New Worlds ST franchise makes it clear that Vulcans can have sex outside of Pon Farr, and that they can enjoy recreational sex. It's just a deeply private thing, typically between betrothed or married couples, however. (It also introduces T'Pring as a more sympathetic character rather than just Bride-From-Hell.)

The rituals around pon farr actually make a lot of sense. A nasty kind of sense, but it's built around a nasty bit of biology.

They apparently arrange marriages way before adulthood, as in Spock and his assigned mate, T'Pring. Probably logically, based on genetics, background, social status, etc. That would make sense, it would help to assure that every Vulcan male had a mate ready when the life-threatening moment approached.

The female can refuse, but since this puts the male's life in danger, there is a high social and legal cost (i.e. chattel status), and the other male she wants has to risk his life to achieve the goal, both of which would discourage doing so 'casually'. It would probably also seem appropriate, from a Vulcan POV, that the challenger must risk his own life, since he's putting the challenged's life at risk.

(The duel to the death, on those occasions when it does happen, would also apply a selective pressure, which probably appeals to Vulcan logic.)

I would imagine, given the rest of what we see of Vulcan society, though I have no data to confirm it, that there are other ways to challenge the arranged marriage, with less extreme consequences, but that they would have to be invoked well before the big event to allow time for other arrangements to be made. If you wait to the last minute the way T'Pring did, then you have to pay the price. After all, it's literally a matter of life and death.

As I said, it all makes a nasty kind of sense.

And of course, I have absolutely no doubt that Stonn discovered the truth of Spock's observation that "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Inky

As Johnny1A.2 says, there's nothing irrational about studying psychic phenomena if you are, in fact, psychic.


The way they go about it, with "monasteries", chanting, etc., might be distressing to a scientific human parapsychologist - it's probably a direct descendant of how they did it in their equivalent of the Middle Ages; Vulcan society seems to have a strong traditionalist streak. But it seems to work, quite reliably, so apparently there is actually a tried and tested system in there.

An odd thing, though, is that the Vulcans themselves seem rather embarrassed about the psychic stuff and act as if they thought it was a departure from their usual standards of "logic".

This is just a guess...but I'm not sure they fully grasp how their own powers work, and that their powers do things that violate their understanding of the universe. Stuff their otherwise-soundly-verified theories say can't happen, but does.

Logically, their powers exist, and therefore their understanding must be wrong, but they can't put their finger on where, and it bugs them.

That's my guess, anyway.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

My head canon is that the modern Vulcans are descendents of the priestly caste of Vulcanoids left on Vulcan after the Proto-Romulans headed to the stars. They would have just bolted old religious practices onto Surak's philosophy in the same way that Christianity co-opted many pagan traditions and holidays.



That implies that there was further cultural regression after the time of Surak. Following the nuclear war that devastated Vulcan, the survivors might not have had the population or technology needed to preserve all of the old knowledge. If the population and social collapse took several generations to really hit, there could have been an initial flourishing of Surak's teaching, possibly including the founding of the monastery at P'Jem, which was subsequently lost.

McCoy's reaction probably comes from the fact that prior to Spock joining Starfleet, Vulcans appear to have kept pretty much to themselves. Spock was the first Vulcan to go through Starfleet Academy, and possibly the first Vulcan in 100 years to serve on a human-majority Starfleet ship. While McCoy might have been intellectually aware that Vulcans had psi powers, seeing them in use for the first time clearly rocked his world.



There's actually good precedent in canon for this idea. In Voyager, Tuvok repeatedly Mind Melds with the Betazoid murderer, Lon Suder. The deep, repeated contact with such a disturbed person briefly messes with Tuvok's mind, giving him angry, murderous impulses which he struggles to contain. (Nobody does slow-burn, scary Vulcan like Tim Russ playing Tuvok.)



Pon Farr would be scary for any species, "you have two weeks to mate or else you die" is a vicious biological imperative.

For Vulcans, it typically blows away all their emotional control which is humiliating as well as being scary, especially in a culture where all but the most subtle emotional displays are considered to be in bad taste.

Oddly, Romulans don't seem to suffer from the same problem, or else it's never come up.

The new Strange New Worlds ST franchise makes it clear that Vulcans can have sex outside of Pon Farr, and that they can enjoy recreational sex. It's just a deeply private thing, typically between betrothed or married couples, however. (It also introduces T'Pring as a more sympathetic character rather than just Bride-From-Hell.)

Most likely Pon Farr never came up. The only Romulans we see are government personal, esp naval ones. I am sure they have methods like staggering leave time to make sure ships are manned, and providing facilities for that. If anything I suspect Romulans rather than being embarrassed about Pon Farr would write sagas about it.

As a side note, I rather think that Romulan philosophy is a lot more sophisticated than is presented and could be practiced by a decent person. The main thing they seem to have rejected about Surak is pacifism and ascetic antiemotionalism (both of which are not strictly logical in the human sense anyway). By that interpretation the Romulan government we see can be interpreted either as the normal amorality of governments especially authoritarian ones, or a perversion of tradition analogous to Imperial Japanese ideology in the 1930's-1940's. In neither case having any more to do with theoretical Romulan orthopraxy than human philosophies have to do with their governments. The original Romulans who dissented from Surak may not have been given a fair shake in the franchise.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

The female can refuse, but since this puts the male's life in danger, there is a high social and legal cost (i.e. chattel status), and the other male she wants has to risk his life to achieve the goal, both of which would discourage doing so 'casually'. It would probably also seem appropriate, from a Vulcan POV, that the challenger must risk his own life, since he's putting the challenged's life at risk.

Well I think it's worth noting that:
1) The fight resolves the Vulcan's tension. Spock didn't have any need to boink T'Pring after he "killed" Kirk.
2) Fight to the death isn't entirely necessary. Even ignoring the trick with Amok Time, in Blood Fever, the matter is settled when Torres KOs Vorik (one would also assume that Vorik probably wouldn't kill Torres either.)

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Oddly, Romulans don't seem to suffer from the same problem, or else it's never come up.

I kinda assume that Pon Farr is a consequence of Surakism. You bottle your emotions up for seven years, and then it comes out in a ritualistic display of sex or violence (barring intensive meditation).