Close Combat Stress Test

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by martinl

[...] if you kill it you crushed it's head.

That right there would definitely encourage the players I know who like this kind of character . . .

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by martinl

In an ambush situation this can be true, but ambushes in GURPS are deadly. A bunch or worthy archers surprising the PCs with missile fire would have been similarly deadly.

Arguably less so as long as the PCs have the capacity to maneuver into cover or charge into the archers in 2-3 turns.

The ambush we keep not directly discussing pins the PCs down into CC and doesn't let them maneuver. So no Retreats, stuck in CC, few to no CC options, against an enemy that rapidly begins dropping PCs with poison.

However, in non-ambush fights, most delvers need to worry a lot more about a CC attacker rushing them by just soaking the hit.

Soaking what hit? Unless the 'front line' is Waiting attackers get right into CC on a Move and Attack.

Granted, most CC monsters are going to miss on a Move and Attack... and as long as the group isn't bunched up tight or have restricted movement, or stuck with a Reach 2 weapon, the front line can maneuver and start chopping.

Average is 6, and that's still better than many of the other delvers' main attacks.

Not once you start talking injury. Cutting and Impaling really boost damage, something punches sorely lack.

Also inability to target such juicy targets as 'Vitals', 'Eye', etc. Hence, everyone should really have a CC impaling or cutting option at hand.

Those 2 cp and $120 do make a big difference, yes.

A tremendous difference. Especially in the hands of someone like Argua who is going to All Out Attack and does really high damage even with a knife (the AOA Determined makes up for a 'low' skill and might even bring targeting Vitals into play which can be a fight ender).

One of the less obvious advantages of Sword skills in DF is they mostly have a decent close combat knife default. Yvor can use a long knife (as a shortsword) at -2 to broadsword skill. Miao can use one as a main gauche at -3 to rapier. And the scout can use his bow at no penalty in close combat.

That's why in the other thread I mentioned checking your Character's defaults. Long Knife from Shortsword, Small Dresssword from Rapier (also Main guache), etc. A PC can easily have a really good CC option without even spending more points on a new skill.

You're still going to want to have a decent DX and Fast-Draw for the CC weapon, but even sucking up one round of CC attacks to Draw and Ready a CC weapon is worth it over just being stuck in without a CC option.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Also: Why would somebody with Wrestling-14 and an effective ST of 23 (base 21, +1 for Lifting ST 1, +1 for Wrestling at DX+1) even bother to punch?

Step 1: Grapple the neck (-3).

What neck? It's a spider. Sure, sure, it doesn't explicitly say "Injury Tolerance: No Neck" on the spider's sheet... but as a Player I don't have that sheet and spiders don't generally work that way. This is an unintuitive option.

I did contemplate Limb Wrenching it's legs one by one until it was completely crippled... but I also thought "Hey 8 rounds of punching it twice a round will probably do it in faster".

I was right.

3-6 injury per hit (after DR), with two punches per round... Argua spent 4 rounds punching it before I decided it was taking too long and I got bored with punching it to non-death (it was a single good hit away from death, so two more rounds of punching probably would have done the job). And I figured at worst, the room to maneuver was now clear and Argua could take one or two more bites in getting into a better position (almost all the other spiders were dead and it was a bit embarrassing to be the mega-damage Barbarian still struggling to squish a spider. Llandor was the MVP in that fight, killing a spider every other round. Yvor and Sister Miriam made up the bulk of the rest between them).

Huh, and at ST 23 vs. ST 12, Argua is more than twice as strong and can actually just walk off dragging the spider as encumbrance while she does this. "Hey, cleric need help? Argua comin' over! Bringin' spider, but don' worry – this one almost done!"

I considered that as well... however being grappled and 'immobile' I wasn't willing to risk failing to break free and having to release the spider to keep biting and poisoning Argua.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Of course, Argua also has six great huge rocks for that sling. If she can't grapple, she'd probably just bash things with those. Hey, 2d is better than 2d-1!

Didn't think of that... but also I figured just punching would do it in pretty quick. I wasn't calculating the extreme damage the spiders were taking from vital and eye shots (and Impaling injury mods) into consideration with Llandor and Yvor doing 2-5 points of damage with their attacks and droppign spiders every other round. I figure at worst Argua would be at it for 3-4 rounds...

Originally Posted by martinl

Argua's defenses are not great here, so AoA seems reasonable.

I've mentioned it elsewhere... Argua is an All or nothing girl (All Out Attack or All Out Defense).

She needs better armor... and a long knife.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Arguably less so as long as the PCs have the capacity to maneuver into cover or charge into the archers in 2-3 turns.

An archer ambush is most deadly in the surprise round, where fully aimed all out attacks to the eye or vitals with no defense roll come into play.

Soaking what hit? Unless the 'front line' is Waiting attackers get right into CC on a Move and Attack.

If CC beastie starts out of range, front line is waiting. If not, front line gets to hit it, or maybe a compatriot.

Not once you start talking injury. Cutting and Impaling really boost damage, something punches sorely lack.

With crushing I tend to go for knockdowns. All out attack its "face" (for the knockdown) or skull (for knockdown and damage, albeit at poorer odds.)

Yvor doing 2-5 points of damage with their attacks

Default Yvor has no close combat weapon. Was he punching? Ditto Miriam.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

What neck? It's a spider. Sure, sure, it doesn't explicitly say "Injury Tolerance: No Neck" on the spider's sheet... but as a Player I don't have that sheet and spiders don't generally work that way. This is an unintuitive option.

I think that if you just pick up the Dungeon Fantasy RPG and play it unencumbered with GURPS biases (realism, complex martial-arts rules, all kinds of nonhuman traits that didn't make the cut, etc.), it's pretty straight-up intuitive: "I pop its head off!" I've yet to have a player who likes strong characters not try to rip something's head off. It's some sort of law of nature.

[Kromm]

Anyway, I don't see Argua in particular actually caring about huge spiders. They bite for 1d-1 impaling and she has DR 5, so the bite won't inflict injury. Most bites will land on Tough Skin, which doesn't protect against venom, but she'll make just about all the HT rolls (HT 14) and she has 26 HP, so I think the spider is essentially a minor pest, roughly equivalent to something that does 1 HP per turn to a normal person.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think that if you just pick up the Dungeon Fantasy RPG and play it unencumbered with GURPS biases (realism, complex martial-arts rules, all kinds of nonhuman traits that didn't make the cut, etc.), it's pretty straight-up intuitive: "I pop its head off!" I've yet to have a player who likes strong characters not try to rip something's head off. It's some sort of law of nature.

Actual spiders don't really have necks, so I could see why a player might not assume they could grapple it. They have a cephalopothorax. I wouldn't allow a PC to grapple a spider's neck, probably, not because I am "encumbred by GURPS biases" so much as I know arachnid anatomy...

I am not sure popping a spider's head off is meaningfully different than "sufficient damage to the 'torso' to force a death check". It's effective the same as "I rip its body in half".

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Huh, and at ST 23 vs. ST 12, Argua is more than twice as strong and can actually just walk off dragging the spider as encumbrance while she does this. "Hey, cleric need help? Argua comin' over! Bringin' spider, but don' worry – this one almost done!"

Harald387's wrestler would grab light foes, turn them into pretzels while walking over to support my shaman, throw the pretzel-corpse at someone, and then pick his next victim and repeat the process. The throw generally wouldn't do a lot of damage, but it was great for intimidation.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Granted, most CC monsters are going to miss on a Move and Attack...

CC monsters have a tendency to Pounce. That won't work very well on the tankier fighters, but if a humongous spider does a 7" move Pounce on a back line character with ST 12, the spider is attacking at skill 19 and rolling 2d+5 (thrust-2, +1/die from brawling, +3/die from movement), while the victim is rolling 1d. This attack can be blocked or parried, but it's a weight 19 weapon so 3 lb weapons will break on 1-5 and 2 lb weapons will probably break and also be ineffective.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think that if you just pick up the Dungeon Fantasy RPG and play it unencumbered with GURPS biases (realism, complex martial-arts rules, all kinds of nonhuman traits that didn't make the cut, etc.), it's pretty straight-up intuitive: "I pop its head off!" I've yet to have a player who likes strong characters not try to rip something's head off. It's some sort of law of nature.

I have trouble losing that bias when dealing with things I understand from reality that isn't explicitly overruled by the fiction (IE spiders having necks).

Regardless...

Originally Posted by Kromm

Anyway, I don't see Argua in particular actually caring about huge spiders. They bite for 1d-1 impaling and she has DR 5, so the bite won't inflict injury. Most bites will land on Tough Skin, which doesn't protect against venom, but she'll make just about all the HT rolls (HT 14) and she has 26 HP, so I think the spider is essentially a minor pest, roughly equivalent to something that does 1 HP per turn to a normal person.

2d Toxic (1d with a HT check) ain't nothing to go around ignorin. Argua took 11 toxic damage in my fight, 3 more points (a singular bite) would have dropped her, which is the main reason I went for the pin.

Originally Posted by Anthony

CC monsters have a tendency to Pounce.

Eh... depends on what we want to define as "CC monsters". After looking at all the monsters, the majority have Reach C, 1... so they should pretty much all go ahead and try to get into CC. It benefits them to the PC's hindrance.

Of those we define as "CC monsters" because they only have a Reach C, half of them have a ST of 12 or less. So Pounce would be sub-optimal (though for sure, Crushrooms, Trigers, Bears, Humongous Spiders, etc, basically anything with ST 19+ and Reach C is best served by Pouncing).
That won't work very well on the tankier fighters, but if a humongous spider does a 7" move Pounce on a back line character with ST 12, the spider is attacking at skill 19 and rolling 2d+5 (thrust-2, +1/die from brawling, +3/die from movement), while the victim is rolling 1d. This attack can be blocked or parried, but it's a weight 19 weapon so 3 lb weapons will break on 1-5 and 2 lb weapons will probably break and also be ineffective.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Eh... depends on what we want to define as "CC monsters".

I define it as monsters with the ability to keep you in close combat. If it doesn't grapple you, your ability to attack in close combat is sorta irrelevant.