Defense bonus and ATR

[Andreas]

Being able to move and act much faster than others would reasonably give a bonus to defense rolls and make your attacks harder to defend against. For this reason, one might want to buy such advantages for a character who has Altered Time Rate in order to get a character who truly is faster in every way. It stands to reason that the size of the bonus should depend on how many levels of ATR the character has.

However, how large would those bonuses realistically be? The difference between a normal person and someone with ATR 1 would reasonably be the same as the difference between someone with ATR 1 and someone with ATR 3 (since in both cases one is twice as fast as the other), so it should probably not be a constant bonus per level of ATR.

[Anaraxes]

Do you need a rule? Defense isn't all about raw movement speed (and neither is ATR). Anticipation of where the blows are coming or knowing the best way to adjust the enemies' motion matters -- and depending on your character concept, those other factors might matter more or less than just pure speed. So, it seems more a matter of character design to lend the right feel for the fluff for the concept -- largely a matter of taste.

You also might want to skew your bonus defenses differently. The super-speedster might have Enhanced Dodge, but not so much Enhanced Parry, thanks to something like the logic above, while the precognitive psi warrior might bump all defenses since he can see it all coming, while the street samurai in turbo mode just gets Enhanced Parry since it's all about showing off the flashing katana.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Do you need a rule? Defense isn't all about raw movement speed (and neither is ATR). Anticipation of where the blows are coming or knowing the best way to adjust the enemies' motion matters -- and depending on your character concept, those other factors might matter more or less than just pure speed. So, it seems more a matter of character design to lend the right feel for the fluff for the concept -- largely a matter of taste.

You also might want to skew your bonus defenses differently. The super-speedster might have Enhanced Dodge, but not so much Enhanced Parry, thanks to something like the logic above, while the precognitive psi warrior might bump all defenses since he can see it all coming, while the street samurai in turbo mode just gets Enhanced Parry since it's all about showing off the flashing katana.

Sure, things like skill obviously matter as well. However what I was asking about was how much is appropraite just from the increased speed. For example, suppose that a character suddenly finds everyone but him moving in slow motion, at half their previous speed relative to him. Compared to what he had before, how much of a bonus should he realistically get to defense rolls?

[Clockwork_Virus]

I recall that it was suggested (somewhere else on this forum) to think of the mechanical offensive and defensive advantages of Altered Time Rate as coming from the ability to All-Out Attack and then still close out the turn with an All-Out Defense.

Basically, for example, Joe Twice-as-Fast would be able to line up a better attack (AoA Determined), or make a lightning fast attack (AoA Determined + Deceptive), or strike at double-time (AoA Double) . . . and still enjoy defensive benefits of moving faster than the opponent can keep up with (AoD Dodge) or being fast enough to attempt two defenses (AoD Double).

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Clockwork_Virus

I recall that it was suggested (somewhere else on this forum) to think of the mechanical offensive and defensive advantages of Altered Time Rate as coming from the ability to All-Out Attack and then still close out the turn with an All-Out Defense.

Basically, for example, Joe Twice-as-Fast would be able to line up a better attack (AoA Determined), or make a lightning fast attack (AoA Determined + Deceptive), or strike at double-time (AoA Double) . . . and still enjoy defensive benefits of moving faster than the opponent can keep up with (AoD Dodge) or being fast enough to attempt two defenses (AoD Double).

I have seen such a suggestion as well, but it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. That can easist be seen by considering the case of someone with a large number of levels in ATR. Obviously that should give far higher bonuses than what you can get just from AoD maneuvers. These kinds of things is just the faster person taking different maneuvers, they do not reflect the increased defense you would realistically get just from being faster.

[mlangsdorf]

With ATR 4, you can do easily do All-Out Attack (Determined) and move up to your foe, All-Out Attack (Determined) and move to his front right, All-Out Attack (Determined) and move to his right flank, All-Out Attack (Determined), and All-Out Defense (Dodge) and take two steps away from him. Your opponent needs to make 4 defense rolls, 2 of which are at -2 and two of which are at -4 (and in low-tech melee combat, deny him the use of his shield). For most people, that's their two best defenses and then two Dodges at pretty severe penalties, or multiple parries at -2 each. More levels of ATR just make the situation worse for the defender, with even more attacks coming in.

I think the extra advantage for the attacker with higher levels of ATR are already built into the system.

[mr beer]

OP can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that he is asking what a realistic bonus would be rather than suggesting it should be included free of charge with ATR.

[AlexanderHowl]

In the case of ranged attacks, your effective speed is equal to Move/Step * ATR. Against melee attacks, you should really use superior positioning. If you want improved Defense though, just limited Basic Speed to only during ATR.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Being able to move and act much faster than others would reasonably give a bonus to defense rolls and make your attacks harder to defend against. For this reason, one might want to buy such advantages for a character who has Altered Time Rate in order to get a character who truly is faster in every way. It stands to reason that the size of the bonus should depend on how many levels of ATR the character has.

However, how large would those bonuses realistically be? The difference between a normal person and someone with ATR 1 would reasonably be the same as the difference between someone with ATR 1 and someone with ATR 3 (since in both cases one is twice as fast as the other), so it should probably not be a constant bonus per level of ATR.

For ATR 1 I would arbitrarily go with a +3. You could then add a +3 for each subsequent doubling.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

With ATR 4, you can do easily do All-Out Attack (Determined) and move up to your foe, All-Out Attack (Determined) and move to his front right, All-Out Attack (Determined) and move to his right flank, All-Out Attack (Determined), and All-Out Defense (Dodge) and take two steps away from him. Your opponent needs to make 4 defense rolls, 2 of which are at -2 and two of which are at -4 (and in low-tech melee combat, deny him the use of his shield). For most people, that's their two best defenses and then two Dodges at pretty severe penalties, or multiple parries at -2 each. More levels of ATR just make the situation worse for the defender, with even more attacks coming in.

I think the extra advantage for the attacker with higher levels of ATR are already built into the system.

Someone with ATR 4 can do that, yet he would be no better at defending than a normal person who takes All-Out Defense (and that remains true if all he does is taking All-Out Defense). All of the extra advantages are definitely not already built into ATR. ATR just makes him able to do more things, some of which may be focused on attack or defense.

This can clearest be seen by looking at really high levels of ATR. Eventually you get to the point where the opponents almost wouldn't move at all in comparison, then it is obviously completely trival to dodge pretty much any attack from a normal person even if you don't move out of the attacker's range.

Originally Posted by mr beer

OP can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that he is asking what a realistic bonus would be rather than suggesting it should be included free of charge with ATR.

That is correct.