Three questions about Summonable Allies

[Yako]

After having read Kromm's clarification regarding Allies with Summonable in the unofficial FAQ I have a few questions about the advantage (some of which predating and being my reason to look up the uFAQ and the thread the post in question was from).

1. PK once made a very useful article about summonable allies of the easily replacable kind and the ability to summon many different kinds of allies.
I do think it is a good take on it, but it can, especially if one does not want to go with all of the disadvantages of the proposed metatrait, end up rather costly and thus unattractive for low level summoners (since even upping to 150% of own Character Points might leave to little room for other traits).
The variant for conjurable allies from powers does give a different method of allies you can easily replace, but does so by always conjuring different beings.
With minion added, this pretty much only means the creature summoned has no memories of previous summonings (minion does guarantee obedience no matter how you treat an ally and thus should also make any new ally instantly obedient).
Would it be more than a special effect, and if so, how much more to rule that the creature is the same creature, but never truly dying when serving as a summoned helper?
Any creature willing to die for someone, even if not permanent should be treated as a minion to begin with anyway, so the question is, should it make the summonable / conjured enhancement more expensive or is +150% for the same being who can come back after being killed a fair price?

2. As I recall Kromm stating that summonable allies should appear pretty much instantly when called, contrary to the texts in Powers and DF: Summoners, what ARE the official rules on the whole summoning question?
Leaving it all up to GM judgement seems much too vague, especially when designing abilities as a GM for players to use.
I tended to treat it as 1 second concentrate to make the allies appear at once and modifying it with takes extra time and similar to make it a longer thing.
Summoners clearly differs in the treatment and while it is very workable for conjuring something out of battle where, to be fair, time is often much less crucial, it seems like a real headache to use and give very slight trade offs (with a always available 100% ally (4x5=20), it is -5% (1 Point) for a minute or two of ritual, which includes quiet words and materials, -10% (2 Points) for something with more elaborate materials and conditions OR a spellcasting which might cost more FP than the equivalent two levels of costs fatigue and -20% (4 Points) for something that takes hours or big expenses).
The problem is that it leaves both duration and suitable limitations to modify it all over the place, so, what should be fair?
I personally rule that any limitations are solely on the summonable enhancement (meaning they cannot exceed 80%), but even then, there is a huge difference between using the modifiers from Summoners compared to using a few levels of costs fatigue, takes extra time, trigger or immediate preparation required.

3. Using the two variants of summonable ally Kromm specified, I assume the "spell like" variant can just add extended duration, likely the +150% permanent variant to give you, for +250% the kind of "on and off" ally you can dismiss and resummon and also leave summoned as long as you wish until someone banishes it with some spell or ability?
If so, should it really be that expensive?
Personally, I admit that I would houserule it differently and stick with the apparently rather prevalent reading prior to said clarification, but as allies is a bit of a tricky subject in terms of pricing and balance, I would like to know how much I am shifting it away from the official ruling, as most houserules should be considered carefully in my experience.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Yako

Would it be more than a special effect, and if so, how much more to rule that the creature is the same creature, but never truly dying when serving as a summoned helper?

The Ally needs Unkillable or something in that case.

2. As I recall Kromm stating that summonable allies should appear pretty much instantly when called,

I'm fairly sure he's talking about the "spell like" variant. Normal summonable allies should take however long it takes them to get to you based on their own movement abilities and proximity.

If so, should it really be that expensive?

Yes, you are getting rid of the limitations of normal summoned or conjured allies and the limitations of the "spell-like" variant. It should be pretty costly.

[Yako]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The Ally needs Unkillable or something in that case.

Well, I was thinking that between the metatrait bellow and a different ally each time who is also a minion is sufficiently small (and technically, though not with the classical interpretation, the conjured servant is back much faster)

Conjured Servant:You only exist in our world when summoned here to
obey your master. If reduced to -HP, you vanish in a puff of smoke, and can
be summoned again within (2×HP) minutes. Regeneration (Fast; Only
when dead, -40%) [30]; Unkillable 3 [150]; Automaton [-85]; Fragile
(Unnatural) [-50]; Dead Broke [-25]; Neither has nor can spend Fatigue
Points (see Machine, p. B263) [0]; and Vanishes when dead [0]. 20 points.

Thus, especially in cases where the summoner does not want to have a rather mindless automaton, I was wondering if it could also be modelled on an extra enhancement of some sort instead of an advantage on the ally for a summoner on a lower point total who still wants a summonable ally who can come back after being killed (after on day).

I'm fairly sure he's talking about the "spell like" variant. Normal summonable allies should take however long it takes them to get to you based on their own movement abilities and proximity.

Ah, but there is the problem, that is incredibly vague.
First of all, the default assumption of ally seem to be to conjure them, ie. YOU are the one who makes the ally appear.

Summonable: You conjure your
Ally instead of rolling to see whether
he appears at the start of an adventure. To do so, take a Concentrate
maneuver and roll against frequency
of appearance. On a success, your Ally
appears nearby.

Powers does say it depends on the GM's judgement how fast allies appear and even does include the animal example who might have to come from nearby, but I personally find this a bad rule to game master by.
For example, there is the player in my own group who summons zombies by throwing bones (a bit inspired by the dragon tooth for skeleton warriors thing from myth) on the ground, mumbling, concentrating for a bit and powering it with FP (magical energy) to make them rise, which I modelled with a trigger, extra time and costs FP. Logically, they would then appear in the time it takes them to rise from the ground (a few seconds when judging by the fictional examples it is based on).
If I had another player though who conjures his servants form a different plane, should I randomly make this take longer charging the same points and all just because one ingame explanation, a special effect, suits it better than the other?

Can there not at least be a rule like: "it takes 3d6 +/-5 seconds till the ally arrives, the modifier reflecting the affinity of the time / location towrds the conjured being"?

anything which quantifies it and thus allows to tailor it to the necessity would be helpful, because as is, it either means allies will only ever be summoned well before combat / a situation where time matters starts, or the rule being ignored.

Yes, you are getting rid of the limitations of normal summoned or conjured allies and the limitations of the "spell-like" variant. It should be pretty costly.

Well, I will play devils advocat and point to this from the mentioned Pyramid article...

Worked Example:Red Wolf is many years older (and now a 200-point
character) and can bind any spirit to himself that he wishes. He may
summon and dispel his bound spirits with a moment's thought, but must chant and pray for 10 minutes if he wishes to release his old spirits and
bind new ones.
Spirit Binding: Cosmic Pool, 48 points (Only for Summonable Spirit Allies,
-50%; Preparation Required, 10 Minutes, to Switch Abilities, -30%) [96]
This gives him 48 points to "spend" on his spirit Allies. Red Wolf normally
has two 150-point spirits bound to him (each one is a 75% Power Ally and
thus costs 24 points) -- a Poltergeist and a Guardian. He can summon and
dismiss either one (or both) at will, as often as he likes. With war
approaching, he realizes that he needs something more powerful, and
begins to chant and pray. Ten minutes later, he is able to free his old spirits
and bind new ones. He "spends" 40 of the points in his Cosmic Pool on a
100% Power Ally -- a 200-point Warrior spirit to fight at his side. Since he
has 8 points left over, he "spends" them on a 25% Power Ally -- a 50-point
Watcher to act as a lookout. He leaves them unsummoned for now. At this
moment, he could summon the Warrior, the Watcher, or both, but he has no
ability to summon the Poltergeist or Guardian; they were freed when he
reallocated the points in his Cosmic Pool.

I have read the other thread where it has been argued that the classical interpretation (I hope with the added not that allies can be resummoned after one day, not after one adventure) has always been the default assumption, I think this pyramid article at least shows that it seems not to have been for the writer.

It is also apparent though that currently, the official stance which has not been disputed by any other part of the staff and thus can be fairly seen as an uncontested view is different.

Personally, I think the issue is more the pricing of allies, than the pricing of summonable (summonable allies just tend to be what people are especially prone to use for combat machines) and I think rethinking the pricing of allies might be more sensible than the repricing of summonable, but that is my personal view.
I want to ntoe though that +250% for what apparently most people thought they did get for +100% is prone to make people seek alternatives to summonable, like small allies hiding in a cosmic payload or people using a Jumper affliction to call allies from a different plane.
Surely, this is what houserules are for in the end, but I personally think more than twice the price of the enhhancement is definitely too much.
I'd rather get a 150% ally with minion than a 100% ally with summonable, for those extra points, I could after all (assuming a dungeon fantasy 250 points budget) get him insubstantiality with invisibility and make him hang around next to me on the astral plane instead of calling him up over and over.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Yako

I want to ntoe though that +250% for what apparently most people thought they did get for +100% is prone to make people seek alternatives to summonable, like small allies hiding in a cosmic payload or people using a Jumper affliction to call allies from a different plane.
Surely, this is what houserules are for in the end, but I personally think more than twice the price of the enhhancement is definitely too much.
I'd rather get a 150% ally with minion than a 100% ally with summonable, for those extra points, I could after all (assuming a dungeon fantasy 250 points budget) get him insubstantiality with invisibility and make him hang around next to me on the astral plane instead of calling him up over and over.

First, why do you want an ally stronger than you?

Second, if you get a minion with insubstantiality and invisibility that is either one or two special abilities which increases the cost right there. Putting a minion in a payload costs points.

Third, I think you've missed an important part of an ally: they are NPCs and the GM creates them, not you. They player should negotiation with the GM, but the ally is a being with free will. All minion does is to force it to keep loyal to you even if you treat it like crap; it can still break down from such treatment.

Allies are cheap. An ally of your power level (the most I'd allow anybody to take without a really good story) costs 5 CP. Minion is +50%, Summonable is +100%, the total is +150%, so the total CP for such an "ally" is only 12.5 rounded to 13 points. Even a +250% set of enhancements would cost only 18 points.

I agree with you that summonable means that the ally appears close by and I assume fairly quickly. It's up to the GM to define the speed. That's what GMs are for.

[Yako]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

First, why do you want an ally stronger than you?

Second, if you get a minion with insubstantiality and invisibility that is either one or two special abilities which increases the cost right there. Putting a minion in a payload costs points.

Third, I think you've missed an important part of an ally: they are NPCs and the GM creates them, not you. They player should negotiation with the GM, but the ally is a being with free will. All minion does is to force it to keep loyal to you even if you treat it like crap; it can still break down from such treatment.

Allies are cheap. An ally of your power level (the most I'd allow anybody to take without a really good story) costs 5 CP. Minion is +50%, Summonable is +100%, the total is +150%, so the total CP for such an "ally" is only 12.5 rounded to 13 points. Even a +250% set of enhancements would cost only 18 points.

I agree with you that summonable means that the ally appears close by and I assume fairly quickly. It's up to the GM to define the speed. That's what GMs are for.

First, why should someone NOT want an ally stronger than oneself?
Or to put it another way, the question is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion, there are plenty of concepts which need the 150% ally. say, building a Barthimaeus series style summoner (their entire power comes from controlling very strong demons).

And, YES, that is the point, or to illustrate:

A player wants an ally who is constantly available, but also able to vanish and not be a nuisance factor when, say, having a demon/angel/genie floating next to you.
The concept does not work with either an ally who, after being dismissed, is unavailable for a day, nor one who can only stay for a minute and constantly needs to be resummoned, even if it will always succeed.

1. Solution: He takes a summonable ally with increased duration for 5 (ally is as strong as him) x 4 (summoning him always succeeds) +250% = 70 Character Points

2. Solution: He tells the GM that he wants to have a spirit ally who accompanies him on the astral plane and can materialize at will to aid him (a concept I think amply found in fictional examples too). Because this will make the ally more expensive, he opts for a 150% ally so his spirit can still be a strong partner in a fight and such. He pays 10 x 4 character points and, because always floating next to someone seems like something hard to put up with, adds minion for +50%, for a net 60 Character Points.

While in some campaigns it would clearly be better to have an ally who is not only insubstantial and invisible when needed (other spirits might attack him in the astral plane, people with the right kind of see invisible can still perceive him), he can in return do quite a lot of useful work now, like spying on someone in another room, be a quite useful scout, quickly escape many dangerous situations on his own and more and has a better loyalty.

This has nothing to do with "the GM builds the ally not the player", since a GM who does not at least honor his player's concept is seriously doing something wrong.

Also, you completely forget any frequency of appearance modifiers, thus, your example seems a bit misleading, aside from the fact that you should compare the 5 +250% to the 10 +50%, thirdly, what you as a GM would allow is also not really helpful, after all, another GM migth alltogether say "no summonable allies" and yet another one might charge an unusual background, all of those are campaign specific additions, if we discuss such rules, we should discuss them based on the system as defined, unless a part of that system is inherently broken (like the famous 1 damage innate attack with tons of enhancement), thus, unless you think that having one 150% ally for the price of 2 100% allies is inherently broken, it should not matter here.

Thirdly, yes, allies in payloads cost points (payloads cost points etc.), but when summonable becomes so unattractive, that players rather go for a pokemon like "ally can shrink, but only to enter a payload or other special containers + cosmic payload, possibly with gadget limitation" or similar than picking summonable, this might highlight that a +250% summonable (which you would need for the pokemon example) is rather expensive.

Oh, I forgot the last point... ^^ ;

Well, personally, I prefer it when the rules do define it as much as with other abilities, that makes it easier to differnciate between different kinds of abilities and give players an incentive not to press for a concept that seems to support effectiveness as much as possible (if it is up to the GM, it gives player no incentive to define their summoning as slow, they don't even get a proper point break for it when it is all up to GM...)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm fairly sure he's talking about the "spell like" variant. Normal summonable allies should take however long it takes them to get to you based on their own movement abilities and proximity.

How much extra does the "spell like" variant cost, then? The utility of the ability will be different if the ally appears right away, versus possibly not getting there to help you till a fight is over, you've found another way to cross the chasm, etc.

[Terwin]

Originally Posted by Yako

Oh, I forgot the last point... ^^ ;

Well, personally, I prefer it when the rules do define it as much as with other abilities, that makes it easier to differnciate between different kinds of abilities and give players an incentive not to press for a concept that seems to support effectiveness as much as possible (if it is up to the GM, it gives player no incentive to define their summoning as slow, they don't even get a proper point break for it when it is all up to GM...)

Summonable allies can cover everything from Aquaman summoning a sea tortise for a ride(could take hours or days to arrive depending on how far away the closest one is), to having a ring/lamp where you rub it and a genie appears on either the same or next combat turn.

A fairly common usage would be for spells-as-powers characters that can summon allied animals(Ranger/Druid), elementals(Wizard), Angels(Cleric), etc.

Appropriate time-frames for a ranger or druid to summon an animal that is many miles away would not be reasonable for a Cleric calling upon an avatar of their Diety to defend the high-temple against an attack by 'The Dark One'

Because there is such variability, the GM should work with the player to determine an appropriate time-frame based on the power source and how it works.

This is a Generic system, and the only way to keep summonable allies Generic is to rely on the good judgement of the GM to determine how long it should take that ally to become available in each situation.

Would you really want a huge table that gives you an estimate of how long it takes to summon a SM+4, octopodal lime-gelatin elemental when visiting a slightly brackish oasis on the Siberian tundra 10-15 years after it was scoured clean by a Nazi Magi-nuke carpet-bombing in the late 1970's using moon-aspected magic when you are still 4 days short of a full moon?

[Terwin]

Originally Posted by Terwin

Would you really want a huge table that gives you an estimate of how long it takes to summon a SM+4, octopodal lime-gelatin elemental when visiting a slightly brackish oasis on the Siberian tundra 10-15 years after it was scoured clean by a Nazi Magi-nuke carpet-bombing in the late 1970's using moon-aspected magic when you are still 4 days short of a full moon?

By the way, that particular scenario is 4d-6 seconds, unless you happen to be on some weird parallel where the Moroccans that settled that blasted waste do *not* hold their lime gelatin festivals on the 2nd day before the full moon in the temple adjoining their largest gelatin plant which has turned the only remaining oasis brackish because that is where it draws its water from. But that would strain credulity I would think.

[Yako]

Frankly, what I would want is something like:

By default, a summonable ally appears on the turn after you summoned him, able to take action immediately, he will appear in the closest available space in a direction you specify.

-x% your ally is treated as mentally stunned the turn he arrives.

-x% your ally is not conjured but called, he arrives in a timeframe depending on the local affinity, which might make him appear at once (angel in a tempel of his god, fire elemental in a volcano, animals in a natural habitat), or take 3d6 seconds (neutral affinity) to 3d6 minutes (desecrated area for an angel, at sea for a fire elemental, inside a city or similar unnatural place for wild animals). If the ally cannot appear AT ALL outside of certain environments, take environmental instead. What constitutes affinity should be specified at character creation.

-x% your ally always takes a certain time to arrive, the value of the limitation depends on how long.

One could also say that one of those versions is the default, and that an ally who is ready to take action right away is an enhancement, one could also make calling an ally take longer, say 10 seconds like a physical transformation and call for reduced time or a custom enhancement for a quicker summon, or make enhancements so it can actually appear where you want, like, say, right behind your enemies.

But it opens up much more different concepts if you can make that choice.

Frankly, if you go with what you suggest, why should a player go for a concept that calls for anything but the genie in the bottle or a similar style?
I generally don't like punishing a player for having a flavourful idea and I have the impression that neither does the system on a whole, usually, if you go with inherent complications, you get a price break.
I think having one for allies would work quite well too.

And also, I do like the idea of going with a default of 10 seconds, because, all things considered, the "battle form" you shapeshift into and the "battle ally" you call up are rather similar in man regards and giving both the same base time should give good results (especially, it makes takes extra time an appropriate limitation, while with one second, it would be pretty cheap).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

How much extra does the "spell like" variant cost, then? The utility of the ability will be different if the ally appears right away, versus possibly not getting there to help you till a fight is over, you've found another way to cross the chasm, etc.

+0% as far as I can tell. You should probably read Kromm's posts about it. Personally I don't see the point and would probably never allow it.