Min/Max of Attributes

[D10]

Start with the suggested cap of maximum of 20 in one attribute and GM in a way that will punish someone who chose to be a bland 20 DX/IQ character instead of rewarding it

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by mr beer

If you apply expert levels of Lifting skill and Lift ST+2 and Extra Effort and maybe Arm ST, you can achieve absurdly low ST scores for a person meeting world records.
My feel is that ST > 15 is pretty reasonable for the strongest humans, and then have Lift ST on top of that.

Lifting skill doesn't really work well for real world lifts anyway, since it's so random. It would be better applied as some kind of bonus, with a sliding scale of what lifts get what bonus. Olympic lifts are much more technique based (skilful in GURPS terms IMO) than powerlifting lifts.

I'd probably cap ST at 18 for a realistic campaign, of course in a realistic campaign that person would be spending a fortune on food, would need to acquire and administer drugs that are illegal in many countries and be spending upwards of 2 hours per day training.

I think for me it's not that you can do world record lifts with absurdly low base ST scores, it's that world record lifts are incredibly high and you need everything working together to achieve them! But yes obviously this is a matter of perspective :-)!

I think the the way I look at this, is that the worlds best in most physical activities tend to be able to achieve their top performances by a combination of things that have come about by specialising in training how to do stuff. As well as a lucky basic starting point.

Such extreme feats are specialised and become more so the more specific they become. So to me it makes sense for a world class strongman as starting off as naturally big and strong (good basic ST) but also with a lot of specific training to apply their Strength to lifting and carrying things (lifting ST) becoming better lifters than their basic ST would suggest.

The Lifting skill represents real world training and technique (although in GURPS terms I'd also allow techniques within it for specific lifts) training here is also good justification for Lifting ST.

High will power is important not just to model the commitment to training but also the commitment to pushing yourself.

And EE is well frankly it's obvious if you ever see these chaps competing or listen to their experiences, it's very clear they use in real world terms "extra effort" and can't just repeat their highest lift ad infinitum. They often end up pushing themselves hard into exhaustion and worse. Although the basic FP system has issues with how it works here* (I tend to use last gasp).


I also don't think the lifting skill (with EE) is random, precisely because you set a goal (how much extra benefit you want with a view on how likely it is you will achieve it).

So for instance say your will is 12 and skill is +8, you can push yourself with a -10 penalty and succeed 50% of the time. But this would be risky tactic in a competition where say you only have set number of attempts, or a time limit for reps (and you burn a FP each time). Or you could chose a -8 penalty and have much more consistent performance because your effective skill is 12. But obviously you'll be lifting less. Of course if your competition had spent that much longer in the training to warrant having +10 skill but has the same ST and Will, that extra work pays off by them being able to take -10 and keep the consistency. To match them you have to risk pushing your self past your comfort zone and into a performance you are less able reliably deliver


Honestly I really don't get the dislike for lifting skill. We don't bat an eye at other skills representing training and practice to be better at actions than our relevant basic stats would suggest.

The other benefit of all this is you don't have the odd end results of basing world record lifts off just basic ST where the world record can simply be done every 4 seconds for ever and ever because BLx8 is equal to or more than the WR. And the world record power lifter is also able to punch at an equivalent ability etc, etc.


So yeah I like this holistic method to get to these peak performances (which also includes equipment and environmental factors). To me it is not only more realistic in terms of what it is we're actually showing, but also avoids issues of broad abilities in a RPG system



*of course GURPS isn't a dedicated "World's Strongest Man" simulator, so these are systems designed to work for a broad range of things and be actually playable! See also the question of what real world lift does the BLx8 lift in GURPS represent

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*of course GURPS isn't a dedicated "World's Strongest Man" simulator, so these are systems designed to work for a broad range of things and be actually playable! See also the question of what real world lift does the BLx8 lift in GURPS represent

I would've said it's what Ninja Warrior competitors use to get through the wall lift obstacle, but at 50kg/110lb for the 3rd one, it would need ST16 to lift in 1 second with 2 hands.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I would've said it's what Ninja Warrior competitors use to get through the wall lift obstacle, but at 50kg/110lb for the 3rd one, it would need ST16 to lift in 1 second with 2 hands.

I'll be honest I've not seen the TV programme in question, so can't really judge. (although a quick check on youtube and it looks like they take more time to lift the heavier wall, it looking to often take more than one sec)

But yeah, i've seen the GURPS two handed overhead lift described (or assumed to be) a wide variety of things down the years, to me it more like that wall lift than a full extension, locked out & legal lift.

Doing a 1 second two handed lift is a bit weird in the system though how are you getting to ST16? (you doing stuff with reduced time taken?)

Also are you using for lifting skill and EE?

Cheers

TD

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I would've said it's what Ninja Warrior competitors use to get through the wall lift obstacle, but at 50kg/110lb for the 3rd one, it would need ST16 to lift in 1 second with 2 hands.

1 - You're not free lifting that 110lbs, it's stabilized in the frame.
2 - It tends to take 2 seconds to perform the third wall lift.