Automatic Deceptive Attack

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by aesir23

1. People with ATR can take All-Out Attack (Determined) and use the +4 bonus to make a -2 Deceptive Attack, then use their second Maneuver to defend normally. So to some extent, they have this built in already.

Has this ever been clearly stated by someone like Kromm before? Or just a common house rule? My understanding was that All out Attacks remove your Active Defence until your next turn ATR doesn't give you another turn, it gives you an extra maneuver in the same turn. Someone who All Outs on one of their maneuvers may as well All Out on all of them.
(I can understand why most people would run it that way, just wondering if there is any official seal on it.)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Leynok

Has this ever been clearly stated by someone like Kromm before? Or just a common house rule? My understanding was that All out Attacks remove your Active Defence until your next turn ATR doesn't give you another turn, it gives you an extra maneuver in the same turn. Someone who All Outs on one of their maneuvers may as well All Out on all of them.
(I can understand why most people would run it that way, just wondering if there is any official seal on it.)

That's a bizarre technicality I've never seen brought up before, but it does seem technically correct by the wording in the Basic Set.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Leynok

Has this ever been clearly stated by someone like Kromm before? Or just a common house rule? My understanding was that All out Attacks remove your Active Defence until your next turn ATR doesn't give you another turn, it gives you an extra maneuver in the same turn. Someone who All Outs on one of their maneuvers may as well All Out on all of them.
(I can understand why most people would run it that way, just wondering if there is any official seal on it.)

This is clarified in Martial Arts, pg 126-127. Specifically, Maneuver and Turn are not the same thing. Taking a new Maneuver ends the old, but doesn't cause any 'start of turn' things to trigger.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Leynok

Has this ever been clearly stated by someone like Kromm before?

Yes; Kromm has so posted.

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's a calculated feature, not a bug. We fully meant for fighters with ATR to be able to strike twice with AOA (Double) and then defend lots with AOA (Double Defense), thereby avoiding all the bad effects of AOA. For that matter, we fully intended to allow Move followed by Attack to work around the skill and defense limits of Move and Attack . . . that, and every other maneuver combo you can come up with. At 100 points, you're entitled to this kind of rules-bending.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...18&postcount=7

The uFAQ has a reference when calculating attacks per turn with an indirect Krommquote:

So how many attacks can a character make in a turn, maximum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Number of Attacks = 1 + Extra Attack Level +1 if All-Out Attack (Double)
...
Note that Altered Time Rate effectively provides you with extra turns for the purpose of the above calculation!

So extra maneuvers do sometimes act effectively as though they were turns, and overly-precise parsing can lead to errors. The original of the post referenced in this uFAQ entry (from 2006) also explicitly mentioned the ability to shift maneuver types from AoA to AoD.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Altered Time Rate gives you an actual extra maneuver. You could, for instance, take All-Out Attack (Double) followed by All-Out Defense . . . or Concentrate followed by Attack . . . or Attack and Attack again . . . or whatever. The above guidelines on number of attacks apply separately to each of your maneuvers, benefiting from both in the same turn.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=16

The intent is evidently for the defensive state of your last maneuver in a turn to persist until you choose the first maneuver on your next turn.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

This is clarified in Martial Arts, pg 126-127. Specifically, Maneuver and Turn are not the same thing. Taking a new Maneuver ends the old, but doesn't cause any 'start of turn' things to trigger.

That Maneuver and Turn are not the same thing has never been unclear. Those pages don't tell us anything about AoA's effect on active defenses.


On the one hand: "You may make no active defenses at all from the point you take this maneuver until your next turn" (p365). On the other: "For the purpose of active defenses, your maneuver is considered to be in effect until you select another maneuver on your next turn" (p363). The latter doesn't make any difference if we trust the rules to be put together right, but is a wedge if you're inclined to think that the use of 'next turn' is a mistake.

[Varyon]

The same price as Enhanced Parry seems appropriate. "Only for Defense" and "Only for Overcoming Defenses" are arguably comparable, as noted. It's also fairly close to PK's suggested Technique, with the Single Skill version costing slightly more (PK's is [4]/level with an initial [1] buy-in) and the All Skills version costing a bit less. I previously suggested the same cost for Tech!, which serves to offset the penalties for Techniques only. In that thread I have it give +1 on the first level (to account for Hard Techniques), +2/level thereafter, but with PK's suggestion I think I'll change that to an initial [2] or [3] buy-in (waived for characters with TbaM/WM) and be a constant +2/level; I might also allow for an all-skills version that still costs [5]/level, gives only +1/level, and has an initial [5] buy-in (again, waived for characters with TbaM/WM).

Originally Posted by Leynok

Has this ever been clearly stated by someone like Kromm before? Or just a common house rule? My understanding was that All out Attacks remove your Active Defence until your next turn ATR doesn't give you another turn, it gives you an extra maneuver in the same turn. Someone who All Outs on one of their maneuvers may as well All Out on all of them.

Note such an interpretation would also mean that a character who has Decreased Time Rate would lose the penalty from All Out Attack (and the benefit for All Out Defense) halfway between two maneuvers, which seems... odd.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Note such an interpretation would also mean that a character who has Decreased Time Rate would lose the penalty from All Out Attack (and the benefit for All Out Defense) halfway between two maneuvers, which seems... odd.

No, Decreased Time Rate gives you a turn every 2 seconds, not a maneuver every 2 turns.