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Old 11-12-2022, 09:43 AM   #11
WingedKagouti
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
So the crossbow-wielder in my PCs group wants a GURPS version of the 3.5 D&D spell that does this:
One thing worth noting here is that RAW a D&D "Round" is 6 seconds (at least from 3.5 and onwards) while RAW a GURPS "Turn" is 1 second.

So if the spell lets a character shoot a crossbow once every 6 turns, it's technically just as fast as the D&D spell, even though GURPS allows for a larger amount of individual actions being taken within that timeframe. And it can feel like the GURPS crossbowman is doing far less than their D&D cousin, despite them actually performing the same in "real" time, in large part because other characters can take more actions other than "reload and aim" in the same amount of time.
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Old 11-12-2022, 10:17 AM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Good Points all! So, how about:
3 FP to cast, this spell cannot be maintained.

Fred, you don't think it's too powerful if it lasts for a full minute? That could allow some sniper to fire a crossbow up to 20 times!?

thom
I don't think the Spell is too powerful at all.
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Old 11-13-2022, 07:09 AM   #13
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

My preference would be for a specialized variant of Dancing Object which allows the caster to specify multiple actions, but only to reload a given weapon.

Here's my TMI suggestion:

Dancing Reload Regular

Movement College

As for Dancing Object, but specialized to reload weapons with a complex, multi-turn loading sequence such as bows, crossbows, or muskets. It can be used to reload heavier weapons, but at considerably increased energy cost.

For the spell to work, the weapon must be in usable condition and must be supplied with suitable ammunition and reloading gear. While the spell lasts, it reloads itself as necessary.

The caster can specify that the weapon, its ammunition, and reloading gear remain in a single hex or follow a specific person.

In the former case, the weapon reloads itself and gently falls to the ground when the sequence ends. It only begins the next reload sequence on the turn after it is fired. Anyone can Ready the weapon and fire it normally, but it, loading equipment, and unused ammunition always returns to the specified hex, flying through the air at Move 10. Reloading doesn't begin until the items return to the specified hex and the spell ends if they are unable to reach their destination. If multiple ammunition types are available, the caster can specific a certain loading order when they cast the spell or let the spell choose randomly.

Alternately, the caster can specify that the weapon shoots as soon as it is reloaded, firing in a direction, or at a specific hex, specified when they cast the spell. Such shots are considered to be "Wild Shots" which can't be aimed, have a -10 penalty to skill, and always miss on a roll of 10 or higher on 3d.

In the latter case, the user must carry the weapon, ammunition, and reloading equipment as Encumbrance, but the weapon is temporarily bound to them. At the end of the reload sequence, it springs to their hands, allowing them to Ready it normally on their next turn. Additionally, the user can specify the ammunition the weapon loads and exact reloading process (e.g., careful loading for black powder weapons) as a free action when each loading cycle begins.

On the turn after the weapon is triggered, the user can drop it as a free action, allowing it to reload itself as they do other things. If the user moves, it travels with them, remaining in an adjacent hex, up to a maximum of Move 10.

Alternately, the user can hold the weapon (possibly in just their "off" hand) as it reloads. This allows the weapon and other equipment to travel with the user, regardless of speed. If the user is affected by the Haste or Great Haste spells, holding onto the weapon also reduces reloading times just as if they were loading the weapon themselves.

Foes can attempt to destroy the weapon or reloading equipment, targeting them normally but with an additional -2 penalty to hit due to unpredictable movement. Destruction of the weapon, or required reloading equipment, ends the spell.

If the spell is cast in conjunction with magic items which reduce reloading time (e.g., Quick-Draw Quivers), those items reduce the weapon's loading time normally.

If the spell is cast on an unattended weapon, effective skill to load it is equal to the caster's spell skill or appropriate weapon skill, whichever is lower. If the spell is linked to a specific user, effective skill is the lower of the caster's spell skill or the user's weapon skill.

If the caster knows Quick Draw (Ammunition) or Quick Draw (Reloading) for a given weapon type, they can attempt to reduce the weapon's reloading time by making a Quick-Draw skill roll just before they cast the spell. Success reduces the reloading time normally. Failure gives a penalty equal to the caster's Margin of Failure to cast the spell. Critical Failure means the spell automatically fails.

The spell ends if the weapon runs out of ammunition or reloading supplies, if it suffers a Malfunction, or if it or any item of reloading equipment breaks. If the weapon was only part of the way through its reloading sequence when the spell ends, the GM must determine the time required to complete the rest of the reload sequence.

At the GM's option, this spell can be TL-based, requiring a different spell variant for each TL. TL for weapon types is based on the TL at which they were introduced, rather than TL of a given weapon. For example, Dancing Reload/TL0 is needed to reload bows, even if the spell's subject is a TL8 compound bow.

Duration: 10 sec. or duration of one reloading sequence, whichever is greater.

Cost: 1 point of energy per 3 seconds normally required to reload the weapon, to a maximum of 5 points of energy maximum. Same cost to maintain. Multiply casting & maintenance costs by 1 per 5 lb. of ammunition weight over 1 lb.

Time to Cast: 1 second.

Prerequisite: Dancing Weapon.

Items: a) Any item, typically staff, wand, clothing, or jewelry. Allows the user to cast this spell. Energy cost to create: 350. b) Any item, typically clothing, jewelry, or similar item. Allows the user to cast this spell on any weapon they are carrying. Energy cost to create: 300. c) Any suitable weapon. Allows the user to cast this spell on the weapon, and associated ammunition and reloading gear. Energy cost to create: 150 times the basic casting cost.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 11-13-2022 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 11-14-2022, 11:16 AM   #14
maximara
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Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
One thing worth noting here is that RAW a D&D "Round" is 6 seconds (at least from 3.5 and onwards) while RAW a GURPS "Turn" is 1 second.

So if the spell lets a character shoot a crossbow once every 6 turns, it's technically just as fast as the D&D spell, even though GURPS allows for a larger amount of individual actions being taken within that timeframe. And it can feel like the GURPS crossbowman is doing far less than their D&D cousin, despite them actually performing the same in "real" time, in large part because other characters can take more actions other than "reload and aim" in the same amount of time.
This is a point raised in the D&D to GURPS (Introduction) page on the wiki. If you are converting pre 3.x material most of it has a 1 minute combat round (D&D Basic Set, D&D 1981/1983, and D&D Rules Cyclopedia have a 10 second round) which is an eternity in GURPS combat terms.

The D&D 3x+ combat round abstracted a lot of things which could easily fill up 6 seconds load crossbow, aim crossbow, and then fire crossbow.
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Old 11-14-2022, 12:10 PM   #15
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
One thing worth noting here is that RAW a D&D "Round" is 6 seconds (at least from 3.5 and onwards) while RAW a GURPS "Turn" is 1 second.

So if the spell lets a character shoot a crossbow once every 6 turns, it's technically just as fast as the D&D spell, even though GURPS allows for a larger amount of individual actions being taken within that timeframe. And it can feel like the GURPS crossbowman is doing far less than their D&D cousin, despite them actually performing the same in "real" time, in large part because other characters can take more actions other than "reload and aim" in the same amount of time.
I looked up the spell, and I believe there is no limit to how quickly it can reload a crossbow, although practically speaking I think the limit would be 5 times in a round - a character with Base Attack Bonus of +16 or higher (thus being able to attack up to 4 times in a round with a Full Attack - at +16, +11, +6, and +1) and a Haste effect (which gives the character one additional attack at full BAB when making a Full Attack) could make all 5 attacks with the same weapon in a round with that spell in effect (so long as it has enough reloads remaining, at least).

But with that said, it's always best to convert concepts rather than mechanics. What does the spell really accomplish? For hand crossbows and light crossbows, while the option to make a Full Attack is decent, honestly it burns up too many uses on what are largely "Hail Mary" attacks - what it really does is stop you from being unable to move when engaging, and perhaps more importantly prevents you from provoking Attacks of Opportunity. The latter don't really exist in GURPS, but for the former simply having the spell take just as much time as normal to reload the weapon, but without the character needing to do much of anything (just draw and load the bolt), may well be sufficient. For Heavy Crossbows, the situation is largely the same, but there's the benefit that it actually takes less time to reload the weapon (Heavy Crossbows require a Full Round Action to reload, rather than just a Move Action)... but in exchange you only get half as many reloads out of each casting. Part of the difference there may honestly be an issue of resolution, but if you really want to maintain the "takes less time to reload" aspect of it, you could let it condense time - Ghostly Reload has this occur basically free of charge (Heavy Crossbows normally take about twice as long to reload, so they burn up twice as many "reloads"), but in GURPS an option like this typically results in lower efficiency - I'd say divide efficiency by the same divisor as used for time (treat a free action as 0.5 seconds).

For example, just throwing some numbers out there, let's say the spell gives us a nominal 10 reloads, and we're using a weapon that requires 2 seconds to pull back the string. So, if the spell takes 2 seconds to pull it back, we get 10 reloads, which take 20 seconds (2 seconds each). If it requires 1 second, that's half the time, but we also are at half efficiency - we now only get 5 reloads. If it's instant (0.5 seconds), that's 1/4th the time, so we're also at 1/4th the efficiency, and we only get 2.5 reloads (probably round down to 2).
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Old 11-14-2022, 06:36 PM   #16
thom
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

Guys, thanks for the input. However, I might not have been as clear as I could have been for what the PC actually wants:
• He wants the spell to allow the crossbow to be cocked as a Free Action-period!
• This allows him to make a Fast-Draw (bolt) roll to place a bolt as a Free action, and then he'll bring the crossbow to bear as a Ready action. Which allows him to shoot the crossbow on his next turn...

So, given these parameters, my question is how much FP to cast this spell, and should there be any other restrictions?

thom

EDIT: clarified cocking the crossbow as a Free action...

Last edited by thom; 11-14-2022 at 07:09 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 11-15-2022, 07:03 AM   #17
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Guys, thanks for the input. However, I might not have been as clear as I could have been for what the PC actually wants:
• He wants the spell to allow the crossbow to be cocked as a Free Action-period!
• This allows him to make a Fast-Draw (bolt) roll to place a bolt as a Free action, and then he'll bring the crossbow to bear as a Ready action. Which allows him to shoot the crossbow on his next turn...

So, given these parameters, my question is how much FP to cast this spell, and should there be any other restrictions?

thom

EDIT: clarified cocking the crossbow as a Free action...
I believe Thaumatology has rules for applying Enhancements to spells, where the percentage increase is both translated into a penalty (I think -1 per +10%) and applied to the FP cost. For a dedicated crossbow-reloading spell - rather than the generic Dancing Objects spell we're basing our spell off of (and which may be a prerequisite; at the very least, the two spells should probably have similar prerequisite chains) - I feel being able to adjust the effective ST directly, simply having this modify the FP cost without any casting penalty, should be acceptable (and we want to be able to vary the ST, considering there are a range of crossbows we may want to use this with).

As for making cocking the crossbow a free action, as I noted above, reducing the time to cock it to 0.5 seconds should suffice to count as "instant" for GURPS purposes. There are two ways to go about this. The method I personally feel is most appropriate is to cast the spell with enough ST to cock the crossbow in half a second. I believe matching a crossbow's rated ST allows you to cock it in one second*, so having twice the Basic Lift - roughly x1.5 to ST - of the crossbow's rated ST should let you cock it in 0.5 seconds (having half the BL would call for 2 seconds, for example). So, with the same cost as Dancing Objects - giving the spell ST 15 - you can cock a crossbow up to ST 10 instantly. To cock an ST 15 crossbow instantly, you'd need BL 90 or better, or ST 22. That's +46.7% to ST, so apply that to the FP cost, and you're good to go (if you want higher resolution, you can actually figure out how much you need to boost BL, then take the square root of that to see what multiplier would be needed; to go from BL 45 to BL 90 is x2 to BL, and the square root of 2 is 1.414, so you're looking at +41.4% to the FP cost).

The second method, which is arguably a bit simpler, is to get the ST of the spell up to match that of the crossbow (so that it should take 1 second to cock), then toss on Reduced Time +20% (making it a free action).

I believe Dancing Object normally lasts for an hour (I don't have Magic, but I noticed one of the Sorcery conversions gave it a 90 minute duration, which is an odd value but has the same cost as a 60 minute duration, so I'm going to assume they were shooting for that and just opted against rounding the duration down), which may be markedly longer than you want. So you may want to apply Reduced Duration. I'd have this be a built-in statistic for the spell, rather than something that can be adjusted when casting (like ST). If you want it to last 20 minutes, that's -10%; 10 minutes is -15%; 6 minutes is -20%; 3 minutes is -25%; 2 minutes is -30%; 1 minute is -35%; 36 seconds is -40%. Personally, if opting to reduce the base Duration, I'd either go with 10 minutes for -15% or 6 minutes (which I'd round down to 5 minutes) for -20% - that makes it something that you can cast ahead of time if you're expecting trouble in the immediate future, but something unlikely to apply for more than one encounter.


As an aside, however, making the cocking instant may not be necessary. You could probably modify a crossbow for only a few $ such that you can load the bolt before the string is drawn back, and the bolt will go with it. With such a modification, the character could load the bolt as a free action while the string is being drawn back, then use a Ready to prepare their weapon to fire. By the time their next turn rolls around, the crossbow will be fully cocked and ready to fire. You could even get away with a two-second cocking time, if the character opts to Aim before each shot. Something for the player to consider.

*Looking at the reload time of 4 seconds, however, I may be mistaken - perhaps a crossbow that you match the ST of takes 2 seconds to cock. If so, that means you need 2x the BL of the crossbow's ST to cock it in one second, 4x to cock it instantly. That's x1.414 (typically rounded up to x1.5) and x2 to ST, respectively. Or, if using Reduced Time, you need two levels of it, for +40%, in addition to any adjustments necessary for ST.
Of course, another fly in the ointment is that the reason the crossbow needs a Ready to prepare to fire after reloading is because you need to switch grips to pull back the string; a self-cocking crossbow may not need that final Ready at all!
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Old 11-16-2022, 11:36 AM   #18
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: GURPS version of Ghostly Reload D&D spell?

FWIW, I've got a house rule that allows you to boost the effective ST (or whatever) of the forces powering a Dancing Object spell. That would allow the standard spell to cock a heavy crossbow in just 1 turn, or even "instantly" if you allow a Fast-Draw skill variant for fast reloading.

Spoiler:  


A hypothetical Fast Reload spell would be a combination of Dancing Object + Great Haste, with reduced prerequisites and costs for shorter duration and specialized function. My writeup for "Dancing Reload" allowed that spell to be combined with Great Haste.

Your player is also forgetting the possibility of a spell which both cocks the crossbow and reloads it simultaneously - turning it into the magical version of a Repeating Crossbow.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 11-16-2022 at 11:43 AM.
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