Pure speculation

[Anomylous]

I basically agree with zot's idea: if there were to be a fourth stat, "Inspiration" is a pretty good idea, though I might call it "Presence" (PR).

But I also agree that sticking with 3 stats is probably the way to go, for most purposes. After all, we know it works. And one side effect is, if players can't handle in-game social situations by just rolling dice, because there's no stat for that... they have to actually *gasp* ROLEPLAY!

We did get this short article about things SJ considered doing with Legacy Edition, and didn't. One of them was adding an extra stat! (But it would have been HP / fatigue, same as GURPS.)

I wondered about the choice of "Legacy Edition" as a name, too, TFT 2.0 seemed like the obvious choice.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Anomylous

I wondered about the choice of "Legacy Edition" as a name, too, TFT 2.0 seemed like the obvious choice.

To me "Legacy Edition" sounds like the old one, not the new.

[David Bofinger]

I think it's not hard to make a case for quite a few attributes. But any time I've looked at it I've ended up dissolving the distinction between attributes and talents.

• Want your character to be able to bend iron bars? Take a few levels of Strength.
• Want him to be charming? Buy some Sex Appeal and Charisma.
• Think the character's ability to fight, driven by levels in several relevant talents, implies he must be strong? Well, maybe some of those talents had levels in Strength as prerequisites.

I think it would make a good game. But is isn't TFT. And for those who think modifications to TFT can have only one destination, it isn't GURPS either.

[zot]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I think it's not hard to make a case for quite a few attributes. But any time I've looked at it I've ended up dissolving the distinction between attributes and talents.

• Want your character to be able to bend iron bars? Take a few levels of Strength.
• Want him to be charming? Buy some Sex Appeal and Charisma.
• Think the character's ability to fight, driven by levels in several relevant talents, implies he must be strong? Well, maybe some of those talents had levels in Strength as prerequisites.

I think it would make a good game. But is isn't TFT. And for those who think modifications to TFT can have only one destination, it isn't GURPS either.

If only that third microgame about social conflicts had come out...

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by zot

These issues we've been discussing for the past couple years all make me wonder what Steve has up his sleeve. Is there a TFT 2.0 in the works? Otherwise why name the current TFT, "Legacy Edition"?

If I were to make a 2.0, I'd add one more attribute: IN, for inspiration, that would handle will power, social things, wisdom, bravery, leadership, intuition, etc. You could also call it Will but I think I like Inspiration better than Will because it captures more than just will power.

I'd also use something like Chris Rice's or Skarg's relative DX system. That would also remove opposed rolls since it already handles opposition (and reduces it to a single roll).

I don't think there will be a TFT 2.0 in the near future. Putting out TFT Legacy the way Steve did was very economical. A word for word lift from Original TFT with only about 10% word changes (due to gaming concept changes.) The fact that after 2+ years, we are still bantering about this rulebook shows that we are still interested in the system and haven't given up.

I think that keeping 3 attributes will keep it TFT. However if there was a 4th attribute, I could go along with ZOT's Inspiration attribute. I'd want Inspiration to include a spiritual aspect that also handled metaphysical matters. So intuition, will power, wisdom but also fear checks, perception, awareness of spirit.

As long as we are at it, we could add Spiritnik to Heroes and Wizards. These would be persons who spent all his life living with spirit matters; they think in terms of Gaia, spirits, self-control (even if agnostic or athiest). They deal in blending the psychic (spiritual) and physical worlds, and are good with most studies, but are handicapped by other things. It might be a counter to IQ's magical aspect. Perhaps its the spirit that is controlling that intuition, fear and will power.

Although if you make 4 attributes, does that mean that starting characters are 48pts? ST10, DX10, IQ10, IN10 with 8 to spread? And then there will be a realignment of Talent rolls to the new attribute. But the good news is you can create new Talents because its a new attribute.

[zot]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

I think that keeping 3 attributes will keep it TFT. However if there was a 4th attribute, I could go along with ZOT's Inspiration attribute. I'd want Inspiration to include a spiritual aspect that also handled metaphysical matters. So intuition, will power, wisdom but also fear checks, perception, awareness of spirit.

This is very much like Tri-Stat's Soul stat, which is really what I was going for, although I didn't list any spiritual aspects of it (other than the name itself). My Theurgy system really wants a spiritual attribute :).

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

As long as we are at it, we could add Spiritnik to Heroes and Wizards. These would be persons who spent all his life living with spirit matters; they think in terms of Gaia, spirits, self-control (even if agnostic or athiest). They deal in blending the psychic (spiritual) and physical worlds, and are good with most studies, but are handicapped by other things. It might be a counter to IQ's magical aspect. Perhaps its the spirit that is controlling that intuition, fear and will power.

Wouldn't a Spiritnik be Russian Orthodox? :)

Of course this really ties into Theurgy and I do have a small pile of very disparate religions for it and the current form is a toolkit that makes it very easy to create new religions. There actually is an agnostic religion that's a human potential cult: Mngineering, which turned out to be close to NXIVM because it uses multilevel marketing (NXIVM mixed with Spiritism). I hadn't even heard about NXIVM until a month ago...

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

Although if you make 4 attributes, does that mean that starting characters are 48pts? ST10, DX10, IQ10, IN10 with 8 to spread? And then there will be a realignment of Talent rolls to the new attribute. But the good news is you can create new Talents because its a new attribute.

Currently in TFT you can make a character with 11, 11, 10. I was thinking with a 4th attribute, you should be able to make a character with either 11, 11, 10, 10 or 11, 11, 11, 10. It's hard to say which makes more sense. Probably lower is better, so maybe 42 points: 8, 8, 8, 8 with 10 points to distribute.

The problem is that 10 points to distribute makes a pretty big difference if you put them all on one attribute.

Maybe something like: Each attribute starts at 8, with 10 points to distribute but no more than 8 points added to any one attribute.

This would still essentially let you start with a 34-point TFT character if you keep IN at 8 but hopefully the dangers of low IN would address that.

Having IN should mean many more monsters that use IN -- spiritual, psionic, or fear attacks would be much more common.

[Steve Plambeck]

I think to more accurately deserve the title "Legacy Edition", the edition we got two years ago really should have adhered verbatim to the rules from the five original manuals, just organized into a single consolidated volume. The only changes made could have been those necessitated where a rule was directly contradicted from one book to another (little things like the main-gauche rules, pole-weapons, etc.) since you wouldn't want two versions of the same rule in the same book -- that wouldn't get very good reviews. Simply put, it would have been the old game with any internal inconsistencies ironed out, without any other changes.

What came out instead two years ago has many changes both minor and major, enough so that I'd argue we already have TFT 2.0. It's just labeled the "Legacy Edition". Character progression in particular, something I would call fundamental, has changed a lot since the game many of us played in the 1980's and forward. I'm not out to claim it's better or worse, just that it's different.

Most of the tweaks so often suggested in these forums would, if SJ added them to a new edition, really only amount to a version 2.1. Probably too much work, and too soon, only to end up with substantially what we already have. So that's an unlikely thing to see.

Any fundamental change at this point, such as adding a 4th attribute, would really catapult us all the way into a TFT 3.0. That would be even more work, not only for the designer (who has lots of other good projects to worry about) but also all the players who just started learning (or relearning) the current rules in the last two years.

So I'll go out on a limb and predict there will be no new version of TFT for many, many years, if ever. Not that that will stop us from having tons of fun with the great game we already have.

[JimmyPlenty]

If a new edition would be in the works, I would be for a fresh coat of paint that appeals to a younger audience. I think the game would be perfect younger kids although you have to simplify the combat rules a good deal.

The basics are so simple that if SJG made it very easy to digest, I think kids would jump in on it. Of course, you have to be careful not to make the product (although not the rules) too thin to make it seem like the other RPG's are better because they have "more stuff". Make sure they get plenty in the basic kit.

[Terquem]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

If a new edition would be in the works, I would be for a fresh coat of paint that appeals to a younger audience. I think the game would be perfect younger kids although you have to simplify the combat rules a good deal.

The basics are so simple that if SJG made it very easy to digest, I think kids would jump in on it. Of course, you have to be careful not to make the product (although not the rules) too thin to make it seem like the other RPG's are better because they have "more stuff". Make sure they get plenty in the basic kit.

I believe this is exactly what happened to Car Wars

[JimmyPlenty]

Yes, but I am glad they still kept the older version too. Now, my question is going to be, which one do I play? Old or new? LOL :)

I should point out that I do not want TFT to be replaced, just think another version, world setting or whatever is an interesting idea.